MazdaSpeed 3 TCS/DSC COMPLETELY off.... possibly....

[kessragnell]

Ok.. RIGHT AS YOU TURN ON your rockin MazdaSpeed 3, you will notice that little yellow light on the dash of that car "spinning out" (this is obviously the tcs light as you all know). Anyway, immeditely when you turn on the car and you see this icon lit, hit your DSC off button.

You'll notice both lights are now permanently lit.

This process needs to be timed properly, if you hit your DSC button, and then the DSC LIGHT turns off (NOT your "out of control car" light) hit your DSC button AGAIN.

Again, this will make both lights stay permanently lit, and I PERSONALLY have noticed a bit of a difference in performance from even the standard turning off of the DSC.

Please give your input everyone as to if you feel a difference.

[aaronc7]

more performance as in what exactly? you'll be able to get the same amount of boost regardless of what DSC/TC config you have

you can also just hold the dsc button as you start the car

[fourthmeal]

Old news...but good news nonetheless.

I've been doing this since I bought the car, about a year ago. It is my start-up ritual. I don't like ECU intervention in my driving. My tires have suffered a bit more because of it, however!

Also, do be careful on off-throttle steering. The rear WILL come around on you much more easily. As well, your braking will be fully manual, and you will have no brake force distribution, it seems.

Still, when drag racing or when you are confident in your abilities and the road conditions, it is a neat thing to do.

[Bravnik]

I ran 2 tests the other day with my DashHawk capturing the data. The first run was done after starting the car while holding the TCS button down thus turning off both TCS and DSC.

The second run was done with the normal setting.

1. First Run - DSC/TCS Off - 1st gear 6.82 PSI / 31.1 MPH - 2nd Gear 13.92PSI - 46MPH Peak Boost and MPH on the capture.

2. Second RUn - DSC/TCS On - 1st 11.60 PSI / 31.7 MPH - 2nd Gear 16.68PSI - 43.5 MPH - Peak Boost and MPH on the capture.

Now I know you will say that I mixed up the 2 tests, but I swear I didn't. However, even though I know I didn't I'm doubting myself and will re-run the tests tomorrow to see for sure. Maybe I did but I really don't think so. However, if I did then your theory applies.

[AutoXRacer]

How does that Dashhawk work...? Are you using it as a boost gauge?
What is the install procedure? How much was it?
Do you recommend it?

[Bravnik]

The DashHawk plugs into your OBDII connector. It shows you any PID your car can pickup as well as CEL's and such. You can even clear your CEL's with it.

You can have up to like 6 active windows I think. I use 3 (half screen left for Boost the other half split in 2 for Wideband, Temp). I also have it setup as a shift light using the alert system which flashed the screen for the alerts.

You can also capture data and record it to play it back on your PC with the software provided. In capture mode the default is RPM, Boost, MPH, Load, Temp, Vehicle Speed. It just captures so you can make any changes.

Personally I love it and I highly recommend it. The cost was around $300. From MSD. http://www.dashhawk.com/

[Bravnik]

Ok did a couple more tests today. The outcome was as follows.

Run 1 - DSC/TSC Off - 8.70 Boost / 27.3 MPH / 5435 RPM -- 15.95 / 46 / 5593 RPM

Run 2 - DSC/TSC ON - 12.91 Boost / 27.3 MPH / 5627 RPM -- 15.95 / 46.6 / 5691 RPM

I'm not sure if I got the same first gear take off in Run 1 as I did in Run 2. Run 2 got a good 1st gear takeoff spinning the tires and turning on/activating TSC due to wheel spin.

Now due to inability to get the exact same runs you can take this information for what it is. Just a comparison using the DSC/TCS hack. To me it seems that on both of my tests you actually got a better boost in 1st than you did without TCS and DSC. But overall it seems that using the hack (for lack of a better term) does not really get you any gains and hurts your handling of the car.

My car has MS CAI, Epoxy Mount and I took it in for the updated flash with the latest Voluntary Recall.

[AutoXRacer]

So would you recommend getting the dashhawk instead of a bunch of gauges...? How accurate is the boost gauge? Is there a vacuum gauge/readout too...?

[fourthmeal]

This is quite perplexing. As a habit now I turn the DSC/TCS off as I start the car, pretty much like how I turned off the traction control on my '00 GT Mustang which had the same feature. It is routine at this point, unless there is water on the ground, which in Vegas is seldom.

I get an interesting puff of smoke (like running extra rich) sometimes if I gun it off the line in first and second...when I DO have the DSC/TSC functional as normal. This is also true when I turn the DSC off while the engine is running, per hitting the button.

But, when I turn both off using the start-up "mod" (for lack of a better term), I get no such smoke when I gun it. Hmmmm...

We need some heavy investigation as to what this "mod" does. I am curious as heck as to what it does. It also affects my turn-in on tight 90 degree turns, and affects the car far more when I accelerate in a turn, especially sweepers. I really wonder what it is all about. For now, I continue to turn it off as habit, and I enjoy the (perceived or real...dunno) extra power.

[Bravnik]

So would you recommend getting the dashhawk instead of a bunch of gauges...? How accurate is the boost gauge? Is there a vacuum gauge/readout too...?


I would recommend the DashHawk if you want more information about your car than a few gauges can give you. I also have a Boost and Oil Press Gauge (OP gauge ran and has power but need to find a solution for the sender) but they are more for show as they just look cool (burnout)

The DashHawk will provide you any information that your car computer gets. The boost is captured and correct for Barametric (SP?) pressure as well. So the accuracy should be better than any gauge as it is corrected. The boost shows both Boost and Vac as well.

You can also use it as a wideband as you can monitor both senser 1 and 2 on your exhaust. So technically you can use it to help you tune (though I think it shows you a raw number and you need to convert it to a tunable one - but maybe not, I'm not a tuner so don't know for sure).

Basically any PID you want to monitor, this device should do it. You can also set warnings for all PID's. It also comes with a nice program that will allow you to graph any data you capture as well as being able to do estimated 60's, HP and such.

[Bravnik]

This is quite perplexing. As a habit now I turn the DSC/TCS off as I start the car, pretty much like how I turned off the traction control on my '00 GT Mustang which had the same feature. It is routine at this point, unless there is water on the ground, which in Vegas is seldom.

I get an interesting puff of smoke (like running extra rich) sometimes if I gun it off the line in first and second...when I DO have the DSC/TSC functional as normal. This is also true when I turn the DSC off while the engine is running, per hitting the button.

But, when I turn both off using the start-up "mod" (for lack of a better term), I get no such smoke when I gun it. Hmmmm...

We need some heavy investigation as to what this "mod" does. I am curious as heck as to what it does. It also affects my turn-in on tight 90 degree turns, and affects the car far more when I accelerate in a turn, especially sweepers. I really wonder what it is all about. For now, I continue to turn it off as habit, and I enjoy the (perceived or real...dunno) extra power.

One thing I did notice is that my Boost Gauge in 1st today showed a max of 5psi in 1st on a pretty hard pull, then like 12-13 in second. Both of these were with TCS/DSC ON.

Because the DashHawk gets its information from sensors like the cars ECU, then I wonder if the ECU sees a higer boost than is actually present and causes the fuel cut that some people have been having with an aftermarket BPV?

I'm going to find a nice place to do some tests this weekend and see what the results are. The DashHawk will allow you to capture like 5 or 6 runs so I will grab what I can and will post the results.

[redspeed]

I really think the start up "mod" helps a lot. Probably was happening is that you get more boost in 1st-2nd with tcs/dsc on, but as soon the ecu sense wheel spin it tries to control it with throttle closing etc. With the tcs/dsc off you get less boost, but no ecu intervention, so it feels faster. Maybe is just me, but I think it pulls to 6k easier without ecu control.

[northmiler89]

sooo.. this dashhawk.. you say it will read anytihng the car can through the OBd2 port.. soooo if i am runnign the ATP fuel cut defender...tricks the car into allowing more boost, will it show it through this? Because this would be a WAYYY better deal than dealing with installing all of these guages and bull--

(boom02)

[AutoXRacer]

sooo.. this dashhawk.. you say it will read anytihng the car can through the OBd2 port.. soooo if i am runnign the ATP fuel cut defender...tricks the car into allowing more boost, will it show it through this? Because this would be a WAYYY better deal than dealing with installing all of these guages and bull--

(boom02)

Thats exactly why I'm thinking about it... Beats routing all those wires and tubes into the cabin... Though, I really like seeing those starting sequences on those electric gauges... :)

I think I will go with the more expensive, but easier way... :)
Thanks guys!!!

[staples187]

Thats exactly why I'm thinking about it... Beats routing all those wires and tubes into the cabin... Though, I really like seeing those starting sequences on those electric gauges... :)

I think I will go with the more expensive, but easier way... :)
Thanks guys!!!

It took me 5 mins to run the wires clean and install my dashhawk which would have been about a 3 hr difference had I installed boost, a/f ratio gauges and oil temp. The unit itself is bullet proof and what I mean by that is it gives an extremely accurate readout because it's reading from the main computer itself.

The 0-60MPH, 1/4 time, Fuel Load ect are cool features too.

[BluMicaR]

When I read about the DSC hack I have been using it everyday for the last 3 months like clockwork, never ever started without using it. Last two days I've been going without and I must say, I do believe the car is pulling harder; however, caveat, it feels like late in 1st gear, around 4500, things get 'mushy' up front, I can swear it feels like the tires are breaking tread to me, however I am not getting the 'spin' indicator light and am not slowing nor is there any hop as I glide into 2nd around 5800rpm. Can anyone else vouch for this mushy/tires in hot tar kind of feeling, and is this the DSC kicking in to control slip but there isn't ACTUAL slip because the 'skid' light indicator isn't on??

[Sacrilicious]

yes, i can definitely attest to this. with dsc/tc on, my car feels positively anemic sometimes. it's getting too smart for it's own good sometimes...^^;

[fourthmeal]

When I read about the DSC hack I have been using it everyday for the last 3 months like clockwork, never ever started without using it. Last two days I've been going without and I must say, I do believe the car is pulling harder; however, caveat, it feels like late in 1st gear, around 4500, things get 'mushy' up front, I can swear it feels like the tires are breaking tread to me, however I am not getting the 'spin' indicator light and am not slowing nor is there any hop as I glide into 2nd around 5800rpm. Can anyone else vouch for this mushy/tires in hot tar kind of feeling, and is this the DSC kicking in to control slip but there isn't ACTUAL slip because the 'skid' light indicator isn't on??

My evidence points to the DSC/TCS "mod" making the front break free of traction far too easily, and as a result you have less forward acceleration, but much, much more spin. With the lights on, and the system fully disabled, the spinning goes unchecked of course, and just wastes forward power. But, observers of my car have seen 1st, 2nd, and partial 3rd gear ROAST the tires (without squeal!) when the mod is performed. I hate calling this a mod, but you guys know what I mean.

With the systems fully enabled, this spinning is in check, and there is more forward progress but because the car is limiting power to the capabilities of the tires vs. the road.

I have a feeling that if I could slap on some slicks or other tires with great traction, MORE power would be had from disabling the systems.

[racekar]

i did this and i cant seem to break traction 1st gear, but im not launching either, or shifting from 1 to 2nd gear. no loss of traction?

[BluMicaR]

^If you have turned DSC/TSC off you are probably breaking tread and don't even know it. I noticed that unlike 'stock' when you 'break tread' and the wheels hop, with the two OFF your wheels just spin when you break tread. If you are accelerating like a grandma you aren't breaking it...

Hold your clutch in and get RPMs to 2900, let the clutch out evenly but with decisiveness - you'll get the hang if you don't have it after 2-3 tries. Then when it's almost out begin applying gas until you're WOT the second the clutch 'catch' point is past. Rev up to 5800 and don't let off the gas but a hair, push the clutch in, slam that puppy into second and bring out the clutch. Rev to 5800 and repeat into third. If you're doing this right you'll spin tires in third gear's beginning, you've conserved your pressure in the turbo by not letting the gas up much if at all, and your first three gears passed fluidly like one big gear pulling you upwards of around 70mph in about 5.5-6 seconds. The wheels don't hop with TSC/DSC off so at first you won't be able to tell they're spinning, just there is SO much power to them they break tread like Courtney Love falls down with her legs out. WAY. TOO. EASY. (headbang)

[racekar]

it feels different compared to when i break traction and chirp in my past cars,
integra, prelude, accord, civic even.

It almost feels like the car doesnt give me a lot of torque from 1-2nd gear even with traction dsc/other one off.

i can def feel the car pull though.

[Jays07MS3]

it feels different compared to when i break traction and chirp in my past cars,
integra, prelude, accord, civic even.

It almost feels like the car doesnt give me a lot of torque from 1-2nd gear even with traction dsc/other one off.
i can def feel the car pull though.

Thats because it doesn't. Torque is limited in 1st and 2nd even with TCS/DSC off. The ECU limits the boost and throttle plate in those gears.

The DSC just closes the throttle plate when it detects wheel spin.

[Hapa88]

Ok guys. I'm a little confused. . . My owners manual says that if I turn off the DSC manually, it also turns off the TCS.

It's been raining here the past few days so I decided to test out the whole DSC/TCS thing. So with DSC On, I've been punching it in first and second getting the traction light to come on (blink repeatedly) thereby verifying that the TCS unit is working.

Following that I turned off DSC (not doing this mod, just hitting the button) and re-tried my test. Sure enough, the tires spun like crazy. No TCS light illuminating, just wheel spin. . so what's the use in actually getting this light to illuminate? A warm fuzzy feeling inside? I mean, turning off DSC seems to also turn off TCS. . . so what's the big deal here???? (dunno)

[fourthmeal]

The "full-off" setting appears to completely disable all computer intervention, like off-throttle rear lift and drift. If you want to see the difference, I highly recommend not being on a road with people on it, as the change is dramatic and may surprise you. Our understeering FWD car behaves quite differently when all computer intervention is denied. It behaves much more neutral, possibly with dangerous results if you aren't prepared.

Take a turn while trail-braking and check it out for yourself (on a closed course with a professional driver of course <wink>)

[AutoXRacer]

The "full-off" setting appears to completely disable all computer intervention, like off-throttle rear lift and drift. If you want to see the difference, I highly recommend not being on a road with people on it, as the change is dramatic and may surprise you. Our understeering FWD car behaves quite differently when all computer intervention is denied. It behaves much more neutral, possibly with dangerous results if you aren't prepared.

Take a turn while trail-braking and check it out for yourself (on a closed course with a professional driver of course <wink>)

Do would it behave like a rear drive car? I'll be doing this test on the next autocross!!! SWEET!!!

[fourthmeal]

It behaves like a Porsche on throttle-lift conditions. You'd be crazy to not disable the system on Autocross runs. You need the rotation, definitely.

[AutoXRacer]

It behaves like a Porsche on throttle-lift conditions. You'd be crazy to not disable the system on Autocross runs. You need the rotation, definitely.

I've never driven a Porsche...(scratch)
I've driven a Miata...? Does that count?(huh)

(lol2)

[fourthmeal]

To explain further:

An off-throttle or trail-braking and steering maneuver at higher speeds will result in a drifting rear end if the conditions are right. It is fully controllable, and FUN. But, you've to be expecting it, or it might catch you. With the computer intervening fully, all these shenanigans are kept in check, and you understeer.

From what I've noticed, the DSC "off" light is actually representing the traction control system being off, not the DSC itself. The full disable that we've figured out here takes both systems out completely, except for the brake force distribution and ABS systems.

[AutoXRacer]

To explain further:

An off-throttle or trail-braking and steering maneuver at higher speeds will result in a drifting rear end if the conditions are right. It is fully controllable, and FUN. But, you've to be expecting it, or it might catch you. With the computer intervening fully, all these shenanigans are kept in check, and you understeer.

From what I've noticed, the DSC "off" light is actually representing the traction control system being off, not the DSC itself. The full disable that we've figured out here takes both systems out completely, except for the brake force distribution and ABS systems.

We have brake force distribution...? (huh)

[fourthmeal]

I believe so. At least in the form of being able to control the brake strength during a cornering situation. It certainly feels like it. Try all three modes of the DSC/TCS on the same (safe) corner, and tell me what you think.

[AutoXRacer]

I believe so. At least in the form of being able to control the brake strength during a cornering situation. It certainly feels like it. Try all three modes of the DSC/TCS on the same (safe) corner, and tell me what you think.

I'll have to wait till my first autocross in January... I don't know of any "safe" corners out here... I haven't really pushed this car yet in handling...

So 3 modes...?
(1) All systems enabled
(2) TCS off
(3) TCS and DSC off

Is that right?

[fourthmeal]

Exactly. Find a patch of parking lot and try this stuff out.

[AutoXRacer]

Exactly. Find a patch of parking lot and try this stuff out.


Cool, thanks!!!!(2thumbs)
I will try this out!!(drive)

[Hapa88]

To explain further:

An off-throttle or trail-braking and steering maneuver at higher speeds will result in a drifting rear end if the conditions are right. It is fully controllable, and FUN. But, you've to be expecting it, or it might catch you. With the computer intervening fully, all these shenanigans are kept in check, and you understeer.

From what I've noticed, the DSC "off" light is actually representing the traction control system being off, not the DSC itself. The full disable that we've figured out here takes both systems out completely, except for the brake force distribution and ABS systems.


Why would Mazda do this? Wouldn't it just be easier to turn the system off completely? So you're saying that the owners manual is incorrect and therefore Mazda is misrepresenting information?

[fourthmeal]

YEP!

The "DSC Off" switch to your left at the dashboard simply turns off the primary traction control and is evidenced by the fact that with this switch off, you can easily spin the tires at will. But this mode retains the skid control and other dynamic stability features. Try it yourself if you are in doubt, but do it in a controlled environment.

Why would Mazda do this? Wouldn't it just be easier to turn the system off completely? So you're saying that the owners manual is incorrect and therefore Mazda is misrepresenting information?

IMO, its probably just so people don't sue Mazda for something that was their choice to turn off. By making it fully disabled via the complicated start-up way (and not placing instructions for that in the manual), they protect themselves against someone who turns the whole system off, then slides rear-end first into a brick wall.

[Hapa88]

YEP!

The "DSC Off" switch to your left at the dashboard simply turns off the primary traction control and is evidenced by the fact that with this switch off, you can easily spin the tires at will. But this mode retains the skid control and other dynamic stability features. Try it yourself if you are in doubt, but do it in a controlled environment.



IMO, its probably just so people don't sue Mazda for something that was their choice to turn off. By making it fully disabled via the complicated start-up way (and not placing instructions for that in the manual), they protect themselves against someone who turns the whole system off, then slides rear-end first into a brick wall.


I'm sorry, that doesn't make any sense to me. If Mazda puts it in the manual and the indicator reads DSC Off, then I would assume that the Dynamic Stability Control system is off. They have covered their butt there. They have also covered it by making it default to being ON when the vehicle is started.

If it was just the TSC system turning off, I would think they would put a "TCS Off". By having a "DSC Off" button & indicator showing up on the dash but yet having the TCS unit being the actual unit that is OFF then Mazda leaves themselves up for lawsuits for misrepresentation.

I still strongly believe that this whole TCS/DSC completely OFF mod is a hoax. I think what has happened is that you've tricked the dash lights into coming on but nothing more. It is therefore my belief is that the two systems are either completely ON or completely OFF with no inbetween. It's clearly stated in the owners manual that way and it seems to follow my tests so far. Not to mention its much easier to program an electronic system to be either On or Off. I'll have to test it out more, but as of now, that seems the most logical.

[fourthmeal]

Listen up:

The car behaves completely different from one mode to the next.

This is no hoax, and I don't know why Mazda in their infinite wisdom (did I mention my F-ing engine fell out of my car!!?!) chose to do it this way, but if you drive the car in each mode, it will become apparent to you, too.

Take the car out to a race track and try each mode. A couple have tried this, and discovered the car is faster on the "full off" mode compared with the other two. Why? I assume its because the "full off" mode provides ZERO computer intervention compared with the other two, and as such you can rotate the car around and get it to slide around a bit, which is beneficial on a closed-course race track.

To reiterate:

Leaving all systems nominal from KOEO (Key On Engine On), you have full traction control, as well as full dynamic stability control. Both of these can be proved to be functional by either trying to spin the tires, or by pulling the E-brake. You'll quickly notice that the car is in control of YOU.

Press the DSC switch while the car is running, and you'll now have traction control removed from the game. You can spin the tires at will, and the car will not intervene. However, you if you pull the E-Brake during this mode, the car will regain control. As will it if you pull an aggressive trail-brake maneuver.

Now, with the car fully off, press the DSC button before turning the key and starting the car, and release shortly afterward. With this mode, all nannies are off, and you could easily spin the car if that was your wish through maneuvers. The tires will spin at will, and the brakes independent of each side of the car don't do what the DSC system tell them to. The system is fully disabled.


No matter what you believe and what you don't believe, this is how it goes according to the results I've seen.

**Edit**
If you think this is law-suit worthy, then how about an engine falling out? Or, lets take it further, and say that GM owes me money because they taught me how to spell "Gauge" wrong. All their cars spell it "Gage". I want money. LOL

[lestat13]

This is similar, but not exactly what some people have said, so don't bite my head off if you interpreted this before: I have also noticed, whether through steering, suspension, or somewhere inbetween, that turning DSC off allows more body roll. Steer the car quickly left and right, and while doing that hit the button. Feel the difference! My interpretation is with the systems in place there is less roll = tighter suspension. Have not tried this with the fully off yet.

My issue is that turning any combination of DSC and trac off allows more boost in low gears and keeps the ecu from taking over.... GREAT! If there is some kind of electronic stiffening with either or both systems on, I am a bit perplexed. I know that alot of people want to be able to slide the rear. But what if you want the stiffer ride with full power? I may be a bit confused, but to me this would be the best of both worlds.

Can anyone clear this up a bit for me?

[benzo]

This is a non electronic suspension. There is no possible way turning off the DSC will change the handling characteristics. Simple spring suspension. You need electromagnetic shocks to have any sort of change, which for 23K our cars are sadly missing that option.

[lestat13]

This is a non electronic suspension. There is no possible way turning off the DSC will change the handling characteristics. Simple spring suspension. You need electromagnetic shocks to have any sort of change, which for 23K our cars are sadly missing that option.

I am not debating this, I am just wondering why it feels tighter (less body roll) when the DSC is turned on. Anyone have an explanation, or am I misinterpreting something? Help?

[dkswim]

dsc will use individual breaking to help rotate the car and get it to do what it thinks you are wanting it to do. it has controll of breaks, throtle and a couple of other things.

[wisniaPl]

I tried it today and it way diffrent car is sensitive,i was scared it was raining i will try it when is gona by dry

[mazdaspeed32007]

I tried it today and it way diffrent car is sensitive,i was scared it was raining i will try it when is gona by dry

are you drunk, 3, or hard on english? lol.

why dont you just make friends with your local speed tech and ask his ass what the deal is? buy him a beer. i think there is no way for anyone to really know whats going on until they get a correct definite answer from some sort of machine much like the dash hawk....cough cough....to give some numbers. oh...whoops. cheers! (drinks)

[mckraut]

Any more testing or news on this front?

[dkswim]

what kind of testing are you looking for?

[chacon101]

This is a non electronic suspension. There is no possible way turning off the DSC will change the handling characteristics. Simple spring suspension. You need electromagnetic shocks to have any sort of change, which for 23K our cars are sadly missing that option.


Ok, this made me wonder. What other car is out there that you can buy for 23k that has electronic suspension tuning? I think you're asking for a little too much here. They call this car the best bang for the buck and there is an excellent reason for it.

[mckraut]

what kind of testing are you looking for?

I don't know, results seem inconclusive thus far to me.

[MS3Jon]

This is a non electronic suspension. There is no possible way turning off the DSC will change the handling characteristics. Simple spring suspension. You need electromagnetic shocks to have any sort of change, which for 23K our cars are sadly missing that option.

Electronic stability control (ESC) is a technology that improves the safety of a vehicle's handling, by detecting and preventing skids and slides, helping the driver maintain control of the vehicle. This technology is applied through a computerized system.

ESC simplifies steering for the driver. ESC uses the vehicle's braking system as a tool for "steering" the vehicle back on track. Braking is automatically applied to individual wheels, such as the inner rear wheel to counter understeer, or the outer front wheel to counter oversteer. Some ESC systems also intervene by reducing engine power or accelerating the driven wheels


Care to rephrase your statement?

As for the TCS, it does trim the boost and power output as determined by the amount of traction available.

A traction control system (TCS), on current production vehicles, are typically (but not necessarily) electro-hydraulic systems designed to prevent loss of traction (and therefore the control of the vehicle) when excessive throttle or steering is applied by the driver. Although similar to electronic stability control systems, traction control systems do not have the same goal.

The intervention can consist of any, or all, of the following:

Retard or suppress the spark to one or more cylinders
Reduce fuel supply to one or more cylinders
Brake one or more wheels
Close the throttle, if the vehicle is fitted with drive by wire throttle.
In turbo-charged vehicles, the boost control solenoid can be actuated to reduce boost and therefore engine power.
Typically, the traction control system shares the brake actuator and the wheel speed sensors with the anti-lock braking system.
Traction control is not just used for moving a vehicle from stationary without slippage. During hard maneuvers in a front wheel drive car there is a point where the wheels cannot both steer and drive the car at the same time without losing traction. With traction control, it's less likely for this loss of control to occur. There is a limit though, when the tires lose grip. If the car does not corner as sharply as indicated by the front wheels, understeering occurs. In some front wheel drive cars, traction control can induce lift-off oversteering due to its throttle retarding capabilities. This can keep some cars stable in long maneuvers. In rear wheel drive cars, traction control can prevent oversteering.

All car manufacturers strongly point out in vehicle manuals that the traction control system is not to be taken for granted and that its presence should not encourage dangerous driving or situations beyond the driver's control.


I don't see how it is so hard for some of you to understand that by eleminating the TCS/DSC capabilities, you are not increasing the performance of the car. You are only preventing the loss of performance through electromechanical intervention. As stated, this not only affects the power, but also affects the handling characteristics of the car.

Hopefully this helps dispel some of the doubt and misunderstanding.

[LazerBlueP5]

If this "mod" does indeed turn both off and simply hitting the DSC button doesn't- I don't mind. To be honest, the only thing I'd like to override is my car turning into a limp noodle as soon as the tires break traction a bit. With TCS turned off the power doesn't fall like a trap door and allows me to spin a bit and regain traction through the gears which still yeilds better performance than cutting the throttle electronically and killing any built boost.

Now the findings about the boost being LOWER with the DSC button set to OFF is quite perplexing. I wonder if the Dashhawk is being acurrate on this account???? Doesn't make sense.

[mazdaspeed32007]

it does make sense. mazda probably figured you wouldnt be able to keep the wheels from spinning as much so they lower the boost a little instead of relying on the tsc to do it for you. in other words.....they try to make us safer.....or gay-er.....something along those lines.

[ms3jake]

When i press the DSC button while my engine is running turning it on or off I can not tell any difference in power or spinning. Never tried the press and hold the DSC button while the engine is off "trick". Does anyone really know what this does for a fact yet? Do you get your full boost in the first 2 gears or not? Still a rumor or fact?

[MS3Jon]

Good Lord, what it so difficult to understand about all this?! If you hit the button after you start the car, it turns off DSC but TCS stays on. If you hold the button while starting the car it turns off both TCS and DSC. It's that simple.

[Cookim6]

If you hit the button after you start the car, it turns off DSC but TCS stays on. The two long tire marks in front of my house disagree with this statement.

[MS3Jon]

The two long tire marks in front of my house disagree with this statement.

Was the TCS light flashing while you did this?

[Cookim6]

Was the TCS light flashing while you did this?I wasn't looking down...I will have to next time.

[bykeryder4life]

i bet it was flashing, LETTING YOU KNOW your breaking traction. if you tried to turn the wheel the tcs would probably kick in and cut power, but because you were going in a straight line it didnt cut power- since you already disabled the dsc the ecu knows your gonna get a little loose and wont intervene. with both off it wont flash cause it's fully disabled and whether you turn or go straight you'll have full power to peel/spin out. thats been my experinece

[ms3jake]

Good Lord, what it so difficult to understand about all this?! If you hit the button after you start the car, it turns off DSC but TCS stays on. If you hold the button while starting the car it turns off both TCS and DSC. It's that simple.

Dude, I understand all of this and what it ''supposed'' to do. The part where one holds the button while starting the car turning off both TCS and DSC is what I was talking about. If it really dissabled both wouldnt you get full boost in all gears? I dont think this has been proven yet, still theory? Doesn't anyone have a boost guage to check this?(yes)

[Wykydtron]

To the people interested in the Dashhawk, I found this
http://siteground207.com/~protegeg/product_info.php?products_id=849

[dkswim]

no diffrence in boost in any of the settings (all on, partial off, and all off) when the wheels are straight. confirmed with dashhawk i dont have the graphs anymore. psi diffrence between settings was negligable.

[MS3Jon]

no diffrence in boost in any of the settings (all on, partial off, and all off) when the wheels are straight. confirmed with dashhawk i dont have the graphs anymore. psi diffrence between settings was negligable.

Thanks for getting that info. I was almost sure that would be the case. (cool)

[ms3jake]

no diffrence in boost in any of the settings (all on, partial off, and all off) when the wheels are straight. confirmed with dashhawk i dont have the graphs anymore. psi diffrence between settings was negligable.

So whats the point of turnig it off then?(protest)(shrug)

[MS3Jon]

So whats the point of turnig it off then?(protest)(shrug)

As I said before when I posted the definition of TCS and DSC, you are preventing the loss of power due to electromechanical intervention. If you had TCS or DSC on then it would limit wheelspin/boost/power output if it felt a loss of tracton or a loss of control of the vehicle. Do I need to get a big purple dinosaur in here to sing a freakin' song about it?(bang)

[dkswim]

DSC and traction controll are two diffrent things. Dynamic Stability Controll controlls diffriential braking, throtle and amount of boost, i suspect there is also a link to the power stering, coupled with sensors including but not limmited to g-meters sterring input individule speed sensors. to assist in keeping car on all 4 wheels and heading where you want it to go. there are limiting factors it cant compensate for entering a corner at too high of a speed. on our car we can partialy turn it off it will show the 1 light on dsc off it will allow wheel spin but it starts limiting boost when you start rotating the sterring wheel and stability controll is still on you would use this id you get cought in a snow bank and trying to get out. you can also turn it completly off. which would be recomended for drag racing autocross and racetracks. when i do spirited drives in the mountins i leave on. you never know when a deer is going to hop out of thin air or rocks in the middle of the road or a streem of water flowing across the road. DSC keeps our car fairly nuturel handaling wise with off you will notice back end likes to move around a little.

in sure this is highly fragmented and misspelled ill try and cleen up later.
more to come im at work and cant devot all my time here.

[MS3Jon]

TCS...

Electronic stability control (SC) systems detect loss in traction and react to regain grip using the braking and engine management systems. Situations where the systems will come into action include understeer, oversteer, and spinning wheels.

Most new vehicles are now fitted with some kind of stability control system. There are a host of acronyms for this technology which varies according to car manufacturer…

Electronic Traction control (ETC/ TCS)
Dynamic Stability Control (DSC)
Electronic Stability Programme (ESP)
Porsche Stability Management (PSM)
Etc

Don't be fooled into thinking each of these systems are unique - they all function in very similar ways (and are usually all made by the same manufacturer).

How do stability control systems work?

Sensors

In order for the car to detect loss of traction it needs some sensors. These come in various different forms and determine how the car is behaving, and what the driver is trying to do. Yaw sensors, gyros, wheel-speed detectors and accelerometers are the most common sensors found in SC systems. In addition, information ranging from steering and pedal position, engine speed and gear selection is used to determine driver inputs.

How is this information used?


When the SC system determines that loss of traction is occurring, it acts using the braking and engine management controls (and in some cars even the steering system) to put the car back on track. The system reacts according to a set of preset criteria depending on the nature of the loss of traction, which can include spinning wheels or slides.

Spinning wheels


Traction control is used to reduce drive loss through spinning wheels. This can occur when driving on slippery surfaces, or when accelerating hard (usually in first gear from a stand still). Traction control reacts by applying the brakes to the spinning wheel and this forces the drive to be diverted to the wheel(s) with the best grip. Traction control usually only operates below a certain speed.

Sliding


There are two different types of slide – understeer and oversteer. SC systems react to these situations by applying the brakes to individual wheels, and reduce engine torque when appropriate to keep the car on line. During an understeer situation, torque is reduced and the resulting forwards weight transfer is usually enough to regain control, if this is not sufficient to bring the vehicle back in line, individual rear brakes will be applied. When oversteer is occurring, brake force is applied to one of the front wheels, which acts as pivot to bring the car back on line. In general, the brakes are only applied to the wheels which are likely to have the most grip.

How does the system apply the brakes?


Almost every vehicle now has ABS fitted as standard. This life-saving system allows you to continue to steer while braking by regulating the brake pressure and preventing wheel-lock. The system uses a hydraulic motor to generate brake pressure, and this same motor is used by the SC systems to apply braking force to individual wheels where possible, and valves in the ABS unit regulate the pressure.

Disadvantages of SC systems

As discussed above, SC systems use both the brakes and engine management controls to reduce wheelspin or slides. Great on the road, but when you're on a track the last thing you need is the car putting on the brakes! Most performance cars have an option to disable (or significantly reduce) the SC systems via a button on the dash. Experiment by turning off the control and see how the car behaves. If you have got into the bad habit of allowing the SC systems to sort you out round corners, you may find yourself spinning in the first bend, so be careful and build up speed gradually as your confidence improves.

DSC...

ESC compares the driver's intended direction (by measuring steering angle) to the vehicle's actual direction (by measuring lateral acceleration, vehicle rotation (yaw) and individual wheel speeds). If the vehicle is not going where the driver is steering, ESC then brakes individual front or rear wheels and/or reduces excess engine power as needed to help correct understeer (plowing) or oversteer (fishtailing).

ESC incorporates yaw rate control into anti-lock brakes. Yaw is rotation around the vertical axis; i.e. spinning left or right. Anti-lock brakes enable ESC to brake individual wheels. ESC may also incorporate traction control, which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels and/or reduces excess engine power until control is regained.

ESC cannot override a car's physical limits or increase traction. If a driver pushes the vehicle's traction beyond its limits, ESC cannot prevent a crash. It is a tool to help the driver maintain control using available traction.


[edit] Components and Design
The ESC-system uses several sensors to determine what the driver wants (input). Other sensors indicate the actual state of the vehicle (response). The control-algorithm compares driver input to vehicle response (25 times per second) and decides, when necessary, to apply brakes and/or reduce throttle.

The sensors used for ESC have to send data at all times in order to detect possible defects as soon as possible. They have to be resistant to possible forms of interference (rain, holes in the road, etc.). The most important sensors are:

Steering wheel angle sensor : determines the driver's intended rotation; i.e. where the driver wants to steer. This kind of sensor is often based on AMR-elements.
Yaw rate sensor : measures the slip angle of the car; i.e how much the car is actually turning. The data from the yaw sensor is compared with the data from the steering wheel angle sensor to determine regulating action.
Lateral acceleration sensor : often based on the Hall effect. Measures the lateral acceleration of the vehicle.
Wheel speed sensor : measures the wheel speed.
ESC uses a hydraulic modulator to assure that each wheel receives the correct brake force. A similar modulator is used in ABS. ABS needs to reduce pressure during braking, only. ESC additionally needs to increase pressure in certain situations.

The heart of the ESC-system is the Electronic Control Unit (ECU). The various control techniques are embedded in it. Often, the same ECU is used for diverse systems at the same time (ABS, Traction control, climate control, etc.). The input signals are sent through the input-circuit to the digital controller. The desired vehicle state is determined based upon the steering wheel angle, its gradient and the wheel speed. Simultaneously, the yaw sensor measures the actual state. The controller computes the needed brake or acceleration force for each wheel and directs via the driver circuits the valves of the hydraulic modulator. Via a CAN-interface the ECU is connected with other systems (ABS, etc.) in order to avoid giving contradictory commands.

Most ESC systems use an indicator light on the dash to tell the driver when the system is active (i.e. has detected and corrected skidding).

Many ESC systems have an "off" switch so the driver can disable ESC, for example, when stuck in mud or snow. However, ESC defaults to "On" when the ignition is re-started.

Not quite sure how much easier I can break it down.

[dkswim]

dam you jon.... you said what i was going to say except you added more.

[Young Roids]

subing

[Hapa88]

Good Lord, what it so difficult to understand about all this?! If you hit the button after you start the car, it turns off DSC but TCS stays on. If you hold the button while starting the car it turns off both TCS and DSC. It's that simple.

You're actually wrong. There is NO TRICK! If you hit the button at anytime, you turn off BOTH DSC and TCS! It says so in the owners manual (page 5-23 of the 2008 Mazda 3 owners manual)!

READ THE OWNERS MANUAL!


"Note: To Turn off the TCS, press the DSC OFF switch (page 5-25)"



"DSC OFF Switch
To turn off the TCS/DSC, press and hold the DSC OFF switch until the DSC OFF indicator light illuminates. Press the switch again to turn the TCS/DSC back on. The DSC OFF indicator light will go out.

NOTE
When DSC is on and you attempt to free the vehicle when it is stuck, or drive it out of freshly fallen snow, the TCS (part of the DSC system) will activate. Depressing the accelerator will not increase engine power and freeing the vehicle may be difficult. When this happens, turn off the TCS/DSC. If the TCS/DSC is off when the engine is turned off, it automatically activates when the ignition switch is turned on. Leaving the TCS/DSC on will provide the best stability."


Try it! Hit the button turning off DSC! Drop the clutch and burn out!!!

THERE IS NO TRICK!!! To turn TCS/DSC completely off all you have to do is hit the button!!!

[MS3Jon]

Okay. Go do what it says in the manual and see what happens. Or you can just save the gas, and I'll explain it to you again.

I agree with you that the manual says it will initially turn off both systems, key word "initially". However, once the system senses a complete loss in traction (not control) of the front wheels, the TCS will kick back in and do it's job. You can see the result of this by doing what you, and the manual, said then agressively accelerating. Once you do that you will see the flashing sign on the dash and a change in engine sound and RPM, indicating that the TCS system has reactivated because of the complete loss of traction, and taken back over. If you would have read the complete description of the system, instead of yelling at me and telling me to read the manual, you would have seen that.
So next time you do a little homework and try to tell someone they are wrong, at least read the whole thing.

If the TCS or DSC is
operating, the indicator light flashes.
In addition to the indicator light flashing, a slight lugging sound will come from the engine. This indicates that the TCS is operating properly. On slippery surfaces, such as fresh snow, it will be impossible to achieve high rpm when the TCS is on.

I'm not trying to sound like a dick, I'm just trying to make sure that people are getting the FULL and proper information.

[Hapa88]

Okay. Go do what it says in the manual and see what happens. Or you can just save the gas, and I'll explain it to you again.

I agree with you that the manual says it will initially turn off both systems, key word "initially". However, once the system senses a complete loss in traction (not control) of the front wheels, the TCS will kick back in and do it's job. You can see the result of this by doing what you, and the manual, said then agressively accelerating. Once you do that you will see the flashing sign on the dash and a change in engine sound and RPM, indicating that the TCS system has reactivated because of the complete loss of traction, and taken back over. If you would have read the complete description of the system, instead of yelling at me and telling me to read the manual, you would have seen that.
So next time you do a little homework and try to tell someone they are wrong, at least read the whole thing.



I'm not trying to sound like a dick, I'm just trying to make sure that people are getting the FULL and proper information.


We must be talking about 2 different things here because you statements sound incorrect for the topic given.

What YOU describe is what happens when the TCS & DSC systems are activated and running and the car senses a loss in traction. This happens by default as soon as you turn on your car (no buttons pushed). There will be no lights illuminated on the dash.

If you remember, the title of this thread "MazdaSpeed 3 TCS/DSC COMPLETELY off....". We're not talking about it being ON here (we want the system OFF or deactivated).


Let me reiterate what I am saying:
1) If you want to turn both TCS and DSC COMPLETELY OFF, all you have to do is hit the button on the dash that says DSC OFF at anytime when the car is running.
2) By hitting this button you will see a DSC OFF illuminated on the dash (the traction control light/skid light will NOT be illuminated).
3) This action should be taken anytime you want to do a burnout to impress your friends, get your car DYNOed or free yourself from the SNOW as it states in the manual.
4) With DSC OFF you will able to spin your tires freely, and buronout as long as you want. The TCS light (skid light) will NEVER illuminate in this case, even if the tires are spinning (the only light illuminated is DSC OFF).
5) The TCS system will NEVER reactivate itself unless you hit the DSC OFF button one more time (which will cause the DSC OFF light to no longer illuminate) OR if you turn OFF your car and restart it.
6) The trick described in the first post doesn't do anything more than what the DSC OFF button already does. All you are doing is making another light illuminate on your dash. Both systems will be disabled in either case.

This quote you just stated:
If the TCS or DSC is
operating, the indicator light flashes.
In addition to the indicator light flashing, a slight lugging sound will come from the engine. This indicates that the TCS is operating properly. On slippery surfaces, such as fresh snow, it will be impossible to achieve high rpm when the TCS is on.
Talks about the TCS system when it is ON/Enabled/Active/Activated.

What I am talking about is when the system is OFF/Disabled/Inactive/Deactivated.

I'm not trying to sound like a dick either, I'm just trying to make sure that people are getting the FULL and proper information.

[dkswim]

we are talking about diffrent levels of deactivation of the stability system

[Hapa88]

we are talking about diffrent levels of deactivation of the stability system

There's only 2 levels (despite what people want to believe here - at least on the 2008 models):

1) All ON (Default when you turn on the car - DSC/TCS are enabled)
2) All OFF (When you press the DSC OFF - DSC/TCS are disabled)

[MS3Jon]

If you do it as you said, yes, according to the book it will deactivate both the TCS and the DSC. Just like Mazda did with the CX-7, you can deactivate the system, but it will automatically reactivate itself under certain conditions. I know this because I also own an 07 CX-7 GT. Here's how you can tell that the system is not fully deactivated...
1. Start your car normally.
2. Press the "DSC OFF" switch, you will see only the "DSC OFF" light illuminate on the dash, but the TCS light will remain out.
3. Launch the car hard, ensuring you break traction on the front wheels and you will see the TCS light (the swerving car) flashing. Read that again FLASHING!!! The ECU has just AUTOMATICALLY REACTIVATED the TCS system. The reason Mazda did this is beacuse they know there are young, uneducated fucking idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard.

Now, if you do the other method, you will notice that not only the DSC OFF light is on, but the TSC light will STAY LIT. That light staying lit lets you know that both systems have been FULLY deactivated, and CAN NOT automatically reactivate themselves.
This saves Mazda from any law suits because some retard wrecks his car being stupid, and doesn't know how to handle a car with a little power. Because this method is "FOR MAINTENANCE TESTING ONLY AND IS NOT OUTLINED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL".

[Hapa88]

If you do it as you said, yes, according to the book it will deactivate both the TCS and the DSC. Just like Mazda did with the CX-7, you can deactivate the system, but it will automatically reactivate itself under certain conditions. I know this because I also own an 07 CX-7 GT. Here's how you can tell that the system is not fully deactivated...
1. Start your car normally.
2. Press the "DSC OFF" switch, you will see only the "DSC OFF" light illuminate on the dash, but the TCS light will remain out.
3. Launch the car hard, ensuring you break traction on the front wheels and you will see the TCS light (the swerving car) flashing. Read that again FLASHING!!! The ECU has just AUTOMATICALLY REACTIVATED the TCS system. The reason Mazda did this is beacuse they know there are young, uneducated fucking idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard.

Now, if you do the other method, you will notice that not only the DSC OFF light is on, but the TSC light will STAY LIT. That light staying lit lets you know that both systems have been FULLY deactivated, and CAN NOT automatically reactivate themselves.
This saves Mazda from any law suits because some retard wrecks his car being stupid, and doesn't know how to handle a car with a little power. Because this method is "FOR MAINTENANCE TESTING ONLY AND IS NOT OUTLINED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL".

What you said doesn't apply to the MS3, at least not the 2008 models. The programming is probably different.

I just tested this a few hours ago. Turn off DSC after turning the car on. Did a burnout going onto the freeway, going through all of 1st and part of 2nd. Spinning tires like crazy. NO FLASHING LIGHTS! NONE!!!!. (alright)

Continued driving and got off the freeway. Went back on the freeway (same session, no restart of the car, never touching the DSC OFF button) and did the same thing. Guess what? NO FLASHING LIGHTS!! NO TCS FLASHING, nothing but the DSC OFF light illuminated and some burning rubber smells!

I encourage you to video yourself testing this with the MS3 and you will find out, that yes, I am infact correct.

Here's someone who's already done it (note, no blinking TCS light):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=S-YrWPx_OXY

You can also prove this to yourself by putting your car on a DYNO!!! It's the same thing, the rear tires are stopped, the front tires are spinning!

This probably doesn't apply to the CX-7 because it's a different program! And some of them are AWD! I thought we were in the MS3 forum here. . .

[MS3Jon]

Okay. I'm done arguing with this guy. Sometimes ignorance can't be overcome. And it's usually from the same people that make rediculous claims that make no sense. Like, testing Traction Control on a dyno... seriously? Are you that dense?
And yes, some CX-7's are AWD, like the one I own. Are you saying they won't break traction cause they have AWD? And I know that the CX-7 and the MS3 have different programming. I was simply stating that Mazda has implimented safety controls that will automatically reactivate themselves to prevent dip-shits from killing themselves.
Sense you seem to be an expert on the TCS/DSC system, how about you explain the different settings and why the TCS light stays illuminated in the second method. Maybe I'll go test them on a DYNO.http://www.jaxdubs.com/forum/images/smiles/screwy.gif Believe what you want, I'll stick whith what I know.

[4thStroke]

This is weird. I dont see how its so hard to unserstand that DSC is either off, or on, at the press of a button. I noticed nothing different when I did the startup method vs. hitting the button while in motion.

When I went down to the track, all I did was pressed the DCS off button. With only "DSC Off" illuminated, I had no interference at all while spinning the tires, whether it was in the water box or my launch.

So, with real world testing, that is how the car reacted with DSC off. I turned it off, and thats exactly what it did.

TCS is just one of the stability programs in the whole DSC system. With DSC off, why would traction control still take over if the tires are spinning? After all, it was turned off.

MS3Jon, have you tested the methods? I can just about promise you if you only turn off DCS and dump the clutch from a stand still, the tires will go up in smoke and TCS will not take over. I say "just about" because it sounds like your car may not haven been built like ours by the way you are telling us that with DSC off, TCS will still take over if the tires spin.

The reason Mazda did this is beacuse they know there are young, uneducated fucking idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard.

So... for instance. I know with Mustangs, you turn off traction control, and you can blow the tires off all day long. Why did Ford not protect themselves the same as Mazda has? You can permanatly turn off TC with a programmer, how many times has Diablosport been sued for a some young punk trashing his car because Diablosport allowed him to do this and his own ignorance almost killed him? When you get into a car and deactivate a safely device, YOU are taking the risk, not Ford and Mazda. I would love to see somebody try sue Mazda for turning off DSC and wrecking the car, it would prove entertaining humor for all of us. It would be like someone deactivating the airbag and suing the car maker for allowing him to do that and it didnt deploy when they wrecked.

Im with Hapa on this one.

Mine is an 07.

[dkswim]

im telling you its the level of stability controll being off.

[Hapa88]

Okay. I'm done arguing with this guy. Sometimes ignorance can't be overcome. .

Try it yourself. Do what I said on your MS3. You won't see any lights. Look at the video! WATCH IT!! The second half! Seriously! Here it is again.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=S-YrWPx_OXY
What other evidence do you need? I haven't seen any evidence of you posting anything proof of your "re-engagement" theory. It's ok, you can admit it. . . you're the ignorant one, not me.

And it's usually from the same people that make rediculous claims that make no sense. Like, testing Traction Control on a dyno... seriously? Are you that dense?

It's easy to test if the TCS system is working on a DYNO. Why? Because it the perfect case where the rear tires are fixed and the front tires are moving. The TCS system senses loss in traction by comparing the speeds of the front set of tires verses the rear set of tires. If they are different it cuts the power so that the front tires match the speed of the rears.
If what YOU say is correct, it would be impossible to get a full and accurate DYNO run because the TCS system would intervene and mess up your run. How many people already have DYNO runs on MS3s? Check the forums. .. ask them how they did it. I bet all they did was hit "DSC OFF" to get a nice clean run.

And yes, some CX-7's are AWD, like the one I own. Are you saying they won't break traction cause they have AWD? And I know that the CX-7 and the MS3 have different programming. I was simply stating that Mazda has implimented safety controls that will automatically reactivate themselves to prevent dip-shits from killing themselves.
Yes, some cars have systems that re-engage themselves. I'm seen it on some rental cars. The MS3 does not. Maybe the CX-7 does, but the MS3 doesn't.
The CX-7 AWD probably re-engages itself because its AWD! How can the tires be at different speeds if the drivetrain is forcing them to match speeds?

Sense you seem to be an expert on the TCS/DSC system, how about you explain the different settings and why the TCS light stays illuminated in the second method. Maybe I'll go test them on a DYNO.http://www.jaxdubs.com/forum/images/smiles/screwy.gif Believe what you want, I'll stick whith what I know.

I stated in my one of my other posts about this. All you (or the original poster) did was find a trick to illuminate the other light. I'm sorry, it's no magical super TCS/DSC disable mode. . .it's not. You just found a way to make your dash light up like a Christmas tree. Congratulations!


im telling you its the level of stability controll being off.


Back to what I said before.
There's only 2 levels (despite what people want to believe here - at least on the 2008 models):

1) All ON (Default when you turn on the car - DSC/TCS are enabled)
2) All OFF (When you press the DSC OFF - DSC/TCS are disabled)

DSC is either ALL ON or ALL OFF, no in-between modes

[Hapa88]

Here's another video proving my point (WOW no TCS light! All I hear is spinning tires! WooHoo!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJ_XkX-Z0o

Oh, and another one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MEEJRQ37USc

[jp4130]

There is no trick, the car does everything the same way with both lights on or just one, Hapa88 is right.

[kneedragger241]

i bet it was flashing, LETTING YOU KNOW your breaking traction.
Priceless! I guess the engineers at Mazda think I'm too stupid to realize I'm spinning my wheels and I need a flashing light to alert me... so I can back off the accelerator at the same time as the ECU and come to a screeching halt LOL!

I drive much better without the electronic back seat driver "helping" me.
Haven't had traction control on any of my race cars or bikes and I've done just fine without it.

[Gmac03]

I spent the weekend at the autox course and my first three runs were awful. I was extremely dissapointed in how this car handles. From the test drive a week earlier, to driving it as hard and legally as I could on the street I ascertained that this was a semi neutral fwd car. One thing I changed was gutting the trunk of the spare and all associated parts. So I figured I must of changed the weight of the vehicle so much that I was creating crazy understeer. Now my azenis weren't on yet, so I was on street tires, the stock potenza's, so grip was a factor. So I figured that the excessive understeer was due to the weight and the street tires. But i've raced before and even on street tires, I shouldn't have been understeering that much. I was thoroughly dissapointed and figured I wouldn't be autoxing this car again.

Finally the last thing that came to mind was the DSC "mod"! Now finally this car became a car again! It would break traction, but break neutrally, my rear end would swing out if I wanted it to, I could finally stick my lines.

I dropped a good three seconds compared to all of my runs with the DSC on.
I will without a doubt race from now on only with the DSC OFF!!!

And if I didn't do a good 720* spin on the last turn before the finish line, I would of put down one hell of a track time.

Next race in a couple of weeks and with the race stickies on there and no DSC, I should have no problem puttin down some nice numbers.

Gmac

[4thStroke]

You ran your few few runs with DSC on? That limits throttle while turning way too much, from my experience. The car really changes in the corners when DSC is turned off, a lot more fun. I love coming around a corner in 3rd, to the floor, RPMs shoot up, and come back down to earth as I exit the corner and tires grip again.

[dkswim]

what methoud did you use to turn off the dcs GMAC

[Gmac03]

what methoud did you use to turn off the dcs GMAC

I held the dsc button down while starting the car.

gmac

[Hapa88]

Hapa is not right. I HAVE AN 08 and i know for a fact this is totally different. The DSC button will not fully disable i've had it happen several times not to mention the fact that you still have ecu controlled braking under the harsher braking conditions. With the start up DSC trick everything is fully disabled, no kicking back on, no controlled braking. period end of story.


so in the immortal words of Willy Wonka, "you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir! "

So rephrase your statement to just facts. Because this thread seems to be all over the place.

People started off saying that this mod disables TCS fully. This is what MS3Jon was saying. He said it will re-engage itself automatically if you don't do this mod. Well, he was mistaken. Just hitting the DSC OFF button anytime does that (no mod needed) and I proved that by testing it and posting a bunch of videos showing it that fact.

Now it sounds like you're saying that this Mod disables TCS (which it does, I agree) and turns DSC Off completely (which I'm sure it does). But it is also my belief that hitting the DSC OFF button anytime will do the same exact thing - disable TCS and DSC completely (the DSC part I have NOT tested nor proved).

It makes ZERO sense to me to have an indicator light say "DSC OFF" in your face and yet still be active. Why would Mazda do this? This would lead to a lawsuit for false and deceiving information and false advertising. It clearly states in the manual that hitting DSC Off disables it. If a driver took this car out and the DSC actually intervened when the DSC OFF indicator was illuminated, causing an accident, that would be a lawsuit. It makes no mention of it still activating anywhere (a statement that could prevent any lawsuits for false and deceiving information).

Mazda protects those idiot drivers already by automatically engaging the system by default. They also have SRS airbags and seatbelts to protect them.

Will there still be the "idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard" as MS3Jon states? Yes.

Can Mazda protect all of them? No. Just like Mazda can't force them to wear their seatbelts, nor do they have the ability to limit how fast they drive or how erratically they drive.

Lastly, DSC and ABS (Antilock Braking System or ecu braking) are different systems (even though they can work together). ABS will still operate with DSC OFF. As far as I can tell there is no easy way to disable the ABS system.

[Hapa88]

I spent the weekend at the autox course and my first three runs were awful. I was extremely dissapointed in how this car handles. From the test drive a week earlier, to driving it as hard and legally as I could on the street I ascertained that this was a semi neutral fwd car. One thing I changed was gutting the trunk of the spare and all associated parts. So I figured I must of changed the weight of the vehicle so much that I was creating crazy understeer. Now my azenis weren't on yet, so I was on street tires, the stock potenza's, so grip was a factor. So I figured that the excessive understeer was due to the weight and the street tires. But i've raced before and even on street tires, I shouldn't have been understeering that much. I was thoroughly dissapointed and figured I wouldn't be autoxing this car again.

Finally the last thing that came to mind was the DSC "mod"! Now finally this car became a car again! It would break traction, but break neutrally, my rear end would swing out if I wanted it to, I could finally stick my lines.

I dropped a good three seconds compared to all of my runs with the DSC on.
I will without a doubt race from now on only with the DSC OFF!!!

And if I didn't do a good 720* spin on the last turn before the finish line, I would of put down one hell of a track time.

Next race in a couple of weeks and with the race stickies on there and no DSC, I should have no problem puttin down some nice numbers.

Gmac

So are you saying you drove the whole event with DSC engaged (no lights on the dash)?

Then at the end you tested this DSC mod?

Did you ever try it by just hitting DSC OFF (without doing the mod)?

[noneshallpass]

Hapa is not right. I HAVE AN 08 and i know for a fact this is totally different. The DSC button will not fully disable i've had it happen several times not to mention the fact that you still have ecu controlled braking under the harsher braking conditions. With the start up DSC trick everything is fully disabled, no kicking back on, no controlled braking. period end of story.


so in the immortal words of Willy Wonka, "you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir! "

[Gmac03]

So are you saying you drove the whole event with DSC engaged (no lights on the dash)?

Then at the end you tested this DSC mod?

Did you ever try it by just hitting DSC OFF (without doing the mod)?

My first three runs I touched nothing and my times were shit and the car drove like shit.

The last two runs I did the "mod" and it drove "normal", my lap times dropped by a good three seconds cause I, ME, Myself, could actually drive the car. Instead of the computer doing it.

With the DSC on the car understeered all of the time, with it off it was neutral and acted like a sports car should. And if I didn't spin out on my last run, I would of had times competing with the big boys. And this was all on street tires.

When I had it on, I touched nothing. When I turned it off I did this by holding the button while I started the car. Thats all. I didn't test just hitting the button, and turnign only one light off.

I will tell you though, that by holding that button on start up disengages everything there is to disengage. Cause there is no way I could of spun out like I did with any computer involvement.

Gmac

[dkswim]

thats whats funny thats what we have been telling him, he refuses to listen to us and then wants to argue with us. i know what it dose how there are diffrent levels of off. i personaly dont think its worth my time to argue with someone that dosnt want to listen to what everyone else has to say. you will be able to see the diffrence of these two methouds once you start pusshing your car in the twisties. i dont have hard data all i can tell you is what my but tells me. hmmm but dyno....

[Hapa88]

thats whats funny thats what we have been telling him, he refuses to listen to us and then wants to argue with us. i know what it dose how there are diffrent levels of off. i personaly dont think its worth my time to argue with someone that dosnt want to listen to what everyone else has to say. you will be able to see the diffrence of these two methouds once you start pusshing your car in the twisties. i dont have hard data all i can tell you is what my but tells me. hmmm but dyno....

Did you read his response? Apparently not. Let me requote it for you:

When I had it on, I touched nothing. When I turned it off I did this by holding the button while I started the car. Thats all. I didn't test just hitting the button, and turnign only one light off.



He didn't test my method so there's no way for him to "see the difference."

[noneshallpass]

So rephrase your statement to just facts. Because this thread seems to be all over the place.

People started off saying that this mod disables TCS fully. This is what MS3Jon was saying. He said it will re-engage itself automatically if you don't do this mod. Well, he was mistaken. Just hitting the DSC OFF button anytime does that (no mod needed) and I proved that by testing it and posting a bunch of videos showing it that fact.

Now it sounds like you're saying that this Mod disables TCS (which it does, I agree) and turns DSC Off completely (which I'm sure it does). But it is also my belief that hitting the DSC OFF button anytime will do the same exact thing - disable TCS and DSC completely (the DSC part I have NOT tested nor proved).

It makes ZERO sense to me to have an indicator light say "DSC OFF" in your face and yet still be active. Why would Mazda do this? This would lead to a lawsuit for false and deceiving information and false advertising. It clearly states in the manual that hitting DSC Off disables it. If a driver took this car out and the DSC actually intervened when the DSC OFF indicator was illuminated, causing an accident, that would be a lawsuit. It makes no mention of it still activating anywhere (a statement that could prevent any lawsuits for false and deceiving information).

Mazda protects those idiot drivers already by automatically engaging the system by default. They also have SRS airbags and seatbelts to protect them.

Will there still be the "idiots out there who would kill themselves and/or others by deactivating both safety systems and driving like a retard" as MS3Jon states? Yes.

Can Mazda protect all of them? No. Just like Mazda can't force them to wear their seatbelts, nor do they have the ability to limit how fast they drive or how erratically they drive.

Lastly, DSC and ABS (Antilock Braking System or ecu braking) are different systems (even though they can work together). ABS will still operate with DSC OFF. As far as I can tell there is no easy way to disable the ABS system.

Dude i'm not going to argue with your dumbass. straight up. i know there are three levels of the DSC. I've seen it and done all three.but you telling me what i know to be true is wrong doesn't take away from what i've personally experienced. you sir are just an argumentative jackass. plain and simple. there are 15 people here telling you you're wrong how much more wrong do you have to be. I can tell you that my traction light has gone off multiple times with just hitting the button while driving and then stepping on the gas. therefore i know you're wrong. end of story.

[Hapa88]

I can tell you that my traction light has gone off multiple times with just hitting the button while driving and then stepping on the gas. therefore i know you're wrong. end of story.

I'm wrong because I'm the only one of the 15 people with solid evidence? Evidence from 3 different videos that show otherwise?

All I have to say to that is PROVE IT (this time with solid evidence, not what you say). Then it'll be the "end of story".

[ResilientMike]

BTW Hapa, in that post with 2 videos, the first one had the "mod" engaged. Both lights were on, unless I'm completely blind. Once I get my camera mount made for my car, I'll test all three methods at the track and see if I can sense a difference -_-

ATM, I'm with the other folks since I haven't tested anything and y'all are arguing for us :)

[Hapa88]

BTW Hapa, in that post with 2 videos, the first one had the "mod" engaged. Both lights were on, unless I'm completely blind.

I originally thought that too when I first saw it, but the other light is the low Tire Pressure Light, not the TCS light (TCS light is located on the speedometer side). So he actually did not have the "mod" enabled.

[Hapa88]

For the sake of comparison here's two different videos from the same person. In one he does the "mod", in the other he doesn't.

Note that the tires spin regardless of which method is used(indicating that the TCS system is disabled in both cases).

1) Vid with "mod" (DSC OFF and TCS light on constantly)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Rlua6r_40

2) Vid with just DSC OFF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJ_XkX-Z0o

[mdavis]

two different videos of a possibly heavily mod'd car. If you notice he is shifting well beyond the point at which our boost drops off. before you go and say that everything on youtube is true, get all the details.

[mdavis]

also...

I do not think the issue here is with straight line acceleration. We all know that anytime we can hit our DSC button at a stop light and put on a lil smoke and rubber show, all while waxing about 95% of the cars on the road. Yippee!

The issue is with other stability controls besides drive wheel spin (pointed in a straight line). Turn the wheels in a MS3 and throttle control is no longer yours.

[Hapa88]

two different videos of a possibly heavily mod'd car. If you notice he is shifting well beyond the point at which our boost drops off. before you go and say that everything on youtube is true, get all the details.

I wouldn't say heavily modified, but ok, sure it is modified. None of the modifications he performed, however, affect the systems in question (TCS & DSC).

I encourage you to try it yourself. Record it. Post it up here (if you're unmodified). I'd do the same, but my car is modified (with an intake) and reacts in the exact same way as the videos I posted so there's no point because you won't believe it anyway.(beer)

[mdavis]

how do you know that he has not modified the ECU in some ways? can you prove that?

if the person in those vids knows anything about his car he/she would be shifting well before 7000rpm (way beyond the max boost range). so IMO there most be some ECU mods done as well otherwise hes is just an idiot.

[mdavis]

this also goes back to the straight line acceleration issue.

have you ever been to an autocross to try this in some twisties? Like I stated before. Turn the wheels in a MS3 nail the gas, and the throttle is no longer yours. unless you 'mod'

[Hapa88]

also...

I do not think the issue here is with straight line acceleration. We all know that anytime we can hit our DSC button at a stop light and put on a lil smoke and rubber show, all while waxing about 95% of the cars on the road. Yippee!



I thought so too. But if you read a lot of the posts it appears that the most educated ones here don't know that. Some seem to think the TCS isn't fully disabled (and you have to do this mod to do it). Others seem to think that it magically re-engages itself.


The issue is with other stability controls besides drive wheel spin (pointed in a straight line). Turn the wheels in a MS3 and throttle control is no longer yours.

This is true (in my experience) in some respects. From what I can see DSC has no affect on the 1st & 2nd gear boost limiting, nor does it affect the engine-control software with a that links the engine's output with steering-wheel angle. When the wheel is turned, you can't get full power down (just like you can't get full boost in 1st/2nd gears). Mazda implemented this to address the torque steer issue and as far as I can tell there is no way to disable it (I'll test this tonight with "the mod").

The issue about DSC fully being disabled is another issue. As I've stated in previous posts, I haven't tested it. However it seems illogical to me that this mod would do anything else. It brings up these questions:

1) Why would the TCS light create another mode? Its the TCS light! Isn't the TCS light for the TCS system? Why would it be linked to the DSC system?
2) Why would a "DSC OFF" indicator really mean "DSC sorta/kind of Off"? Seems like a false advertising lawsuit waiting to happen.
3) Why would the Mazda supplied owners manual clearly state that DSC OFF turns off the DSC system (with no mention of it being partially off)? Again, seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
4) Why is there no official Mazda documentation shown here of this "mod"? If it did in fact exist, I'm sure there would be documentation of it and what exactly it does, but not a single person has brought that forth.

[Hapa88]

how do you know that he has not modified the ECU in some ways? can you prove that?

if the person in those vids knows anything about his car he/she would be shifting well before 7000rpm (way beyond the max boost range). so IMO there most be some ECU mods done as well otherwise hes is just an idiot.

Guess I can't prove that it isn't modified. . I'll try contacting him and asking him. He does state his mods in the video (Front mount IC, Turbo Back, Fuel Pump, intake). Maybe he's trying to hide something up his sleeve. . .

As for the 7000rpm, that's exactly what the upgraded fuel pump addresses. You'll also notice that people are posting better top end with the stock Mazda fuel pump after the recall (Mazda Fuel Pump TSB) too.

Looking at these forums, however, there doesn't appear to be any ECU upgrades available for the MS3. A lot in development, but none out from my understanding. The units I have seen out are piggyback units which do not alter any of the ECU's original functions.

[Hapa88]

This is true (in my experience) in some respects. From what I can see DSC has no affect on the 1st & 2nd gear boost limiting, nor does it affect the engine-control software with a that links the engine's output with steering-wheel angle. When the wheel is turned, you can't get full power down (just like you can't get full boost in 1st/2nd gears). Mazda implemented this to address the torque steer issue and as far as I can tell there is no way to disable it (I'll test this tonight with "the mod").


Just came back from testing this out. I enabled "the mod" (DSC OFF/TCS lights illuminated) to try and see if it somehow disabled the steering-wheel angle engine-control software (I guess it's officially known as Mazda Advanced Torque Management System). It didn't.

Went into a 90 degree corner in second gear, while coming out of the turn I punched the throttle with the steering wheel still turned. Car still accelerated but much less aggressively. Boost/Power seems limited until the wheel becomes straight (or very close to straight) when the power then hits hard. It's not the Turbo lag, because the power hits instantously when the wheels straigten. Also it happens at too high in the RPM band (I was between 4500 rpm & 5000 rpm where I notice that boost generally builds up a lot earlier like around 3000 rpm).

Tried it on a number of turns and the same thing.

I came to the conclusion that this "mod" has no effect on the steering-wheel angle engine-control software and I still don't know of a way to disable that.

Still waiting for the opportunity to truly test out the DSC system fully. . .

[MikeHTally]

That is what my dealer told me -- hold down the "DSC..." button when starting the engine turns the "nanny" completely off. My 300C requires some wiring intervention to accomplish the same thing.

[mdavis]

this is an urban legend that need to be solved....this is gonna make me sound like a nerd but i am not scared....lets get the mythbusters on it

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

this is an urban legend that need to be solved....this is gonna make me sound like a nerd but i am not scared....lets get the mythbusters on it

NOOOO! I don't want to see an MS3 get blown up!

[mdavis]

NOOOO! I don't want to see an MS3 get blown up!

good point, but we need to figure this out ASAP!

[punch]

That is what my dealer told me -- hold down the "DSC..." button when starting the engine turns the "nanny" completely off. My 300C requires some wiring intervention to accomplish the same thing.

He probably read this thread.

[mdavis]

still no verdict?

[Hapa88]

still no verdict?

All my tests reveal that this is an urban legend (at least for the TCS part). Read my posts in this thread for more details.

[LENNY127]

I completely ripped all electronics from my car to disable all traction control but now my car wont even start.......I thought I was onto something. I think a boost gauge or consistent 1/4 mile blasts will answer all questions

[Jasnall]

No i didnt read everypage but I've read lots of posts like this and here's my 2 cents.

I can understand people saying the traction control and stuff on this car is pretty controlling. Maybe it takes a little more power away than needed somtimes, but for the most part keeps the wheels on the ground. I've mostly just turned my DSC button off and jetted around...I get wheel spin from stops, 2nd is way easier to chip, kinda feels like a little more power. For the most part I feel all this stuff should just be left on, it was built into the car for a reason.
I laugh everytime I go to the drag strip and watch all the fools spinning their tires for 20 feet...let off the gas...slip the clutch...TURN TRACTION CONTROL ON do somthing.

so for me ill leave my traction controls on and MAYBE lose some power over spinning wheels and holding the wheel like i'm on a bucking bronco.

Plus I like the "security" of the system when I'm smashing through the twisties, it's meant to keep the car going the way you want, and I feel it does a pretty good job.

[ResilientMike]

No i didnt read everypage but I've read lots of posts like this and here's my 2 cents.

I can understand people saying the traction control and stuff on this car is pretty controlling. Maybe it takes a little more power away than needed somtimes, but for the most part keeps the wheels on the ground. I've mostly just turned my DSC button off and jetted around...I get wheel spin from stops, 2nd is way easier to chip, kinda feels like a little more power. For the most part I feel all this stuff should just be left on, it was built into the car for a reason.
I laugh everytime I go to the drag strip and watch all the fools spinning their tires for 20 feet...let off the gas...slip the clutch...TURN TRACTION CONTROL ON do somthing.

so for me ill leave my traction controls on and MAYBE lose some power over spinning wheels and holding the wheel like i'm on a bucking bronco.

Plus I like the "security" of the system when I'm smashing through the twisties, it's meant to keep the car going the way you want, and I feel it does a pretty good job.

It definitely does a great job for DD. However, for the racers out there (1/8, 1/4, Road Racing and Auto-X), it needs to be off. Losing that power to the wheels adds up.

[Jasnall]

but again it's still up to the driver.
TC> wheel spin for 30 feet
I keep seeing these low 9 high 8 cars run high 9's/10's cause they can't hook up.
1/8 mile that is
But ya I would assume the auto x'ers and stuff already know how to drive so can handle the car without TC

[ResilientMike]

I agree to what you're saying Jas.

I do know however, that TC on would cause slower times in the end (if it were the same driver). Losing the power because of TC could potentially hurt your 60ft than help it.

[zim]

I usually leave DSC on when normally driving. I took a sharp left turn at about 50 the other day and the back end came out just enough to keep me in control. I was amazed.

[Gmac03]

I"ll say what I said in my last post. You must turn all of this off if you are road racing, autoxing.

The systems put in place are there for safety and control of the car under daily driving.

When you are racing you need the car to respond like a 3000 lb hunk of metal should respond when being hurdled through hairpin turns, slaloms, etc.

When I tracked the car with the DSC and TC on, the car created huge amounts of understeer. To the point where almost every turn it would just snowplow through turn and force you to drop speeds to save the car from going off the track.

Gmac

[Quiksilver05]

Ok I needed to find out what all the fuss is about so I tried it.....It did feel like the car moves a bit faster than with it on. Weird!! (eekdance)

[megz]

Ok, so I tested the DSC/TC off today at a local auto-x.. bad news. What seems to happen, go to slam on the brakes too hard.. ABS does NOT turn on... not quite a good thing when you're about to slam into a wall of cones and a few course-workers.

So my question is, when you turn the DSC/TC off at startup, does that disable all other funtionality like ABS?

[major error]

You weren't braking hard enough ;)

When I stomp on the brakes because I overshot a turn, I hear the characteristic "crowbar on rotor" sound and the expected vibrations in the brake pedal. There's a particularly high threshold to engage ABS during autoX, it seems...

[megz]

You weren't braking hard enough ;)

When I stomp on the brakes because I overshot a turn, I hear the characteristic "crowbar on rotor" sound and the expected vibrations in the brake pedal. There's a particularly high threshold to engage ABS during autoX, it seems...

Ok, put it this way, I've had the ABS kick on in that car, in auto-x and on the street... and I put WAY more pressure on the brakes this time, and it still locked up... that's why I'm confused

[major error]

...maybe you're confusing squealing tires with ABS not working?

They're not mutually exclusive. Especially if the wheel is not pointing in the direction of travel/slide...

[megz]

Ok, I understand what ABS is, and I understand what tire squealing and when my car slides. The ABS DID NOT kick in. I've had ABS kick in on this car before, and on my last 3, and in my grand prix, my bonneville, my taurus and blazer... I'm not mistaken when I feel a lock up, trust me.

[chacon101]

Slightly off topic but I wouldn't bet the farm on it being fool proof.

I had an 03 VW GTi and once while going through a rain soaked intersection, I had to slam on the brakes to avoid a complete idiot that stopped in the middle of the road.

I hit the brakes hard and I felt that intial vibration of the ABS kicking in but then, as I held the brakes down and white nuckled the steering wheel, I realized that the ABS itself had locked up and wasn't applying ANY brake force at all.

In a slow motion, grey hair giving action, I turned the wheel to the right and then left really quick to whip around that guy. THANK GOD there was nobody right next to me or else I would have nailed that guy.

My whole point is that sometimes, that shit doesn't work.