Cryogenic intake system: general question [Archive]

biochembruin

08-20-2003, 08:59 PM

Hey,

So I’ve read some people mention the cryogenic intake system by DEI, which sprays liquid CO2 onto the intercooler to cool it, and has a heat sink in the air intake to drop air intake temperature. You can also cool the fuel rail with it. I was wondering if anyone has installed this on a stock 03 MSP, and what are the benefits and/or problems they had with the system.

PaulMP3

08-20-2003, 09:16 PM

i have seen this too. Sounds like a real cool idea. I wasnt aware it sprayed your intercooler too. I though it was for NA applications too.

Dismagik

08-20-2003, 10:07 PM

This is the same type of system that Ford put on it's "concept SVT F150" this simple addition made the power output go from 385 to 500. I am not a fan of Ford but they originated this idea for a concept many years ago but never showed it.
My thought is that it makes since all around, mainly because you are making power by cooling an engine, rather than making it burn hotter.
There is my 2 cents, I am not a techno wizard, I just love cars. So take it as you want

Midnight22

08-20-2003, 10:24 PM

wow, sounds like one hell of an idea, especially for those people who want to stay NA, since they wont have to invest in a turbo, tho for people with turbo the gains are outta here

biochembruin

08-21-2003, 12:10 PM

here's DEI's website, if you guys are interested: http://www.designengineering.com/products.html

the only potential problem with a stock MSP i could see would be spraying CO2 on the intercooler, which is right in front of the stock intake. any thoughts?

twilightprotege

08-22-2003, 07:00 AM

when i first saw the co2 thing, the first thing i thought would be instead of buying the bottle and all that set up, why not tap into the air cond piping and try the same sort of thing??? i thought it would be cheaper

later

irr5302

08-22-2003, 07:33 AM

Im purchase a N tercooler from NX im install this weekend

this spray co2 to the intercooler

att IRR

350usd in summit Racing

bazooka joe

08-22-2003, 08:00 AM

i'm not positive, but i think the co2 will be a lot colder??

biochembruin

08-22-2003, 12:03 PM

iIf you tapped into the A/C, then you’d have to run the A/C, which would decrease your gas mileage and rob your car of power. I think the CO2 would be much colder than the A/C could get.

kopp0041

08-22-2003, 01:51 PM

I wrote these guys a few months ago asking about the system and never got a responce. I was interested in knowing what kind of hp gains we could see on an NA using the Air Intake cooler and fuel cooler. Anybody got any ideas?

infrared5

09-04-2003, 11:44 AM

Dont waste your money on the CO2 kit, just get nitrous. At least then you are guaranteed hp and can adjust it. Even if it does cool the air, so what? Thats not gonna give you large hp gains!

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by infrared5
Dont waste your money on the CO2 kit, just get nitrous. At least then you are guaranteed hp and can adjust it. Even if it does cool the air, so what? Thats not gonna give you large hp gains!

Holy cow! You need to take a thermodynamics class!! The amount of energy produced is determined by the difference in INTAKE and EXHAUST temperatures and by volume. Since F/I takes care of the volume, the only thing left is temperature! NOS burns the fuel hotter (increasing EGT) Lower you intake temp and you will have large HP gains!! REmember, whatever can make the expansion of air in the cylinder greater will increase power...class dismissed.

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 12:05 PM

I guess I should add that a lower temperature air has a higher density than a hotter air. This is essentially what increases the expansion volume as it gets hotter. If you take a 2-liter bottle of 20 degree air and a 2-liter bottle of 100 degree air and heat them both up, I bet one of them will explode due to expansion a lot sooner than the other!

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 12:21 PM

Now that I think about it a little more, NOS does more than just burn the fuel hotter, it also decreases the intake temperature. When you spray in NOS, it gets pretty dang cold!! It can drop your fuel mixture by like 65 degrees, this would make the fuel charge denser and increase its volumetric ouput as it burns. So there again, cooling the intake temperature is VERY IMPORTANT!

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by biochembruin
I think the CO2 would be much colder than the A/C could get.

I think you are wrong here. The stuff we put in A/C pumps can get draw out more heat than CO2, otherwise we would be using CO2 in our A/C units!

mp3moose

09-04-2003, 12:56 PM

So does this have any merit in NA applications? For example the MP3 that has advanced timing and isn't No2 friendly.
Moose

kopp0041

09-04-2003, 01:15 PM

Yes it does have implications for a NA system. Can anyone calculate the expected performance gains be dropping the intake air temp by 60%?

pdhaudio83

09-04-2003, 01:19 PM

a bit, moose, i have mp3 with mp3 ecu and running a 50 wet shot fine at the moment, im bringing the car in friday to see what the deal was with the p5 ecu running me rich

mp3moose

09-04-2003, 01:45 PM

cool, let me know how that goes.
Moose

pdhaudio83

09-04-2003, 01:49 PM

will do. being cautious for now :eek:

:D

biochembruin

09-04-2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by ddogg777
I think you are wrong here. The stuff we put in A/C pumps can get draw out more heat than CO2, otherwise we would be using CO2 in our A/C units!

not true. it would take too much energy to cycle CO2 from a liquid to a gas, and back. this is due to the high latent heat of vaporization associated with CO2. The A/C coolant has a lower latent heat of vaporization, but is still high enough to cool the surrounding air. Also, running the A/C pipe through the intake as a heat sink as twilightprotege was suggesting would mean the A/C condenser would have to be running, which takes power away from the engine. In any rate, you can’t vent the A/C directly onto the intercooler, as you can with the DEI setup. Besides, there’s no reason you couldn’t run the DEI setup in conjunction with a nitrous setup. I was simply wondering if anyone had tried it on his or her car (forced induction or N/A) and what was their experience with it.

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by kopp0041
Yes it does have implications for a NA system. Can anyone calculate the expected performance gains be dropping the intake air temp by 60%?

What is your intake and exhaust temp?

kopp0041

09-04-2003, 02:51 PM

I don't know hy temp is, I'm assuming it's the same as everyone else. As for the CryO2 system, I'm also wondering if anyone has used this setup on thier car like biochembruin is asking.

shaunmp5

09-04-2003, 02:58 PM

Did anyone notice that, for a N/A car, this intake and tank kit would cost more than $520.00? That's a lot of dough for an "unguaranteed" amount of horsepower.

kopp0041

09-04-2003, 05:13 PM

That's why we wnat to see a dyno or estimated HP gains.

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 06:03 PM

Okay, here is my guestimate with my memory of thermodynamics. If we say the intake is 100 degrees and the exhaust is 1100 degrees (I have no actual idea) and you can lower the intake by 50 degrees, you will increase HP by about 4-5%. This isn't much, maybe 5HP for Proteges. But, and I stress BUT, that is if you use the same mass of air. You have to realize that colder air will be more dense and a larger mass of air will be shot into the cylinder. This translates into even more energy. This is what turbos do, increase the density of the air charge...

melicha8

09-04-2003, 06:23 PM

A/C has been discussed before and we all concluded that this is not plausible . Energy is conserved (e in = e out) so in an ideal world where there is no parasitic loss from friction and such, you would not net any power out of this mod. Energy required to cool the air would be used up by the energy produced in cooling the intake charge. I hate to say it though, we don't live in this kind of world and energy is always transferred elsewhere netting a loss in HP. Best case scenario no power loss, our scenario, loss in HP.

I was thinking about doing the CO2 thing but I'm sure as hell not going to pay for some kit that can be made by sourcing some paintball parts and various other things from home depot. It's not like it's wet nitrous injection. It's just a container opening up and flowing cold air over other air.

pdhaudio83

09-04-2003, 06:25 PM

ya, like compressed air (xcept co2 is even colder and purer)

melicha8

09-04-2003, 06:35 PM

Good to see we have another biochem major in the house. I'm at UC Davis. I'm actually running an agar gel on some genomic tomatoe DNA right now. Go nerds!!!

http://www.driko.org/smallpics/revengenerds.jpg

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by melicha8
A/C has been discussed before and we all concluded that this is not plausible . Energy is conserved (e in = e out) so in an ideal world where there is no parasitic loss from friction and such, you would not net any power out of this mod. Energy required to cool the air would be used up by the energy produced in cooling the intake charge. I hate to say it though, we don't live in this kind of world and energy is always transferred elsewhere netting a loss in HP. Best case scenario no power loss, our scenario, loss in HP.

If you are dealing with the same mass of air charge then don't do it!! You will lose power through the engine's inefficiency. But, if you increase the fuel charge (due to higher density cool air) and tune for it, you will increase energy output. That is why a supercharger can work; it robs power but the extra fuel charge with proper tuning makes up for it.

I was thinking about doing the CO2 thing but I'm sure as hell not going to pay for some kit that can be made by sourcing some paintball parts and various other things from home depot. It's not like it's wet nitrous injection. It's just a container opening up and flowing cold air over other air.

Yeah, I was looking at the kit and thinking the same thing too! Besides, I'm a paintball enthusiast and a have a 50lb tank in house that I could use to fill the smaller tank up. Cost $25 per 50lb of CO2.

Oh yeah, I like Biochem, but I'm a Mechy!!!

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by pdhaudio
ya, like compressed air (xcept co2 is even colder and purer)

Can you buy liquid compressed air? I don't think so but that would be sweet, then you could just spray it directly into the intake rather than through some tubes! Actually, liquid O2 would be even better. Now that I think about it, we could just spray liquid NOS into the intake! But one thing is for sure, don't spray liquid CO2 into your intake! Oh man, just thinking about that makes me laugh... (rofl)

infrared5

09-04-2003, 07:42 PM

So do you think you'll get the same hp gains from the CryO2 system as a nitrous setup? Im not saying its just the temp, but the added oxygen that increases hp with nitrous, what more than temp does the CryO2 kit offer? To my understanding its a bulb in the intake the CO2 passes through to lower temps. But the CryO2 kit would be much more effective on an intercooler app due to the cost of CO2 vs. nitrous, but does one create lower temps than another?

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 07:53 PM

You will not get the same gains as from a NOS setup. NOS will cool the fuel charge more because it is squirted directly into the mixture. The CO2 passes through little pipes much like an air conditioner (which is exactly what it is doing). Also, NOS is a better oxidizer than air to burn the fuel. Your exhaust temps will be hotter. So, NOS will lower intake temp and increase exhaust temp. The CO2 method only lowers intake temp, and not as much due to not being injected straight in....

ddogg777

09-04-2003, 07:55 PM

Oh, and you're right, liquid CO2 is the cheapest...

ozz

09-04-2003, 08:33 PM

I've seen the Cryogenic system on a mitsu 3000vr4 and it was pretty sweet/the intake tube was completly covered in frost/it was so cold you couldn't touch it(seen it at Carlisle)

infrared5

09-04-2003, 09:42 PM

I am assuming that the CryO2 system requires alot of CO2 to be passed through it to keep it cool, right? Or do you give it a cool charge and thats it?

Kenetix

09-07-2003, 09:02 PM

Its usually drops core temp from around 30-40 degrees. An extra 5-15 hp increase. This just goes on your IC.

/members/Kenetix/subarustore_1745_3206999.gif

kopp0041

09-08-2003, 09:04 AM

That's great if you have an IC, but what about for us NA people? any ideas of gains then??

big_ben

09-08-2003, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by biochembruin
Hey,

So I’ve read some people mention the cryogenic intake system by DEI, which sprays liquid CO2 onto the intercooler to cool it, and has a heat sink in the air intake to drop air intake temperature. You can also cool the fuel rail with it. I was wondering if anyone has installed this on a stock 03 MSP, and what are the benefits and/or problems they had with the system.

It doesn't spray liquid CO2. To get CO2 to liquid form it would have to be VERY cold. But you are partially right. When CO2 gas decompresses and comes into contact with the air, the water in the air instantly condensates. When you spray a CO2 fire extinguisher, the "smoke" you see is not the CO2, it's the water vapor. CO2 is colorless so it is invisible.

Just a clarification.

big_ben

09-08-2003, 09:44 AM

Wow, I am late on this post, I didn't see the 3 pages before I posted my previous one.

biochembruin

09-08-2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Kenetix
Its usually drops core temp from around 30-40 degrees. An extra 5-15 hp increase. This just goes on your IC.

/members/Kenetix/subarustore_1745_3206999.gif

do you have the stock IC? I'm afraid it will crack the plastic ends of my stock IC

ddogg777

09-08-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by big_ben
It doesn't spray liquid CO2. To get CO2 to liquid form it would have to be VERY cold.

It is not that hard to spray liquid CO2. All you need is a siphon in your tank and wallah! But granted, it does turn into gas pretty darn quick and you would run out faster if you were spraying the liquid.

pdhaudio83

09-08-2003, 10:47 PM

umm its near impossible to get it in liquid form to spray into your intercooler. when it hits air it turns into gas...

ddogg777

09-09-2003, 02:44 AM

Nope, it's not hard. Example, a doctor friend fill up a styrofoam cup (about a tablespoon) of liquid nitrogen (lower freezing point than CO2) and tossed it at my shirt. Besides freakin me out, I can tell you it was liquid because I felt the weight of it hit me.

It can be sprayed but you would never want to...it would run out too fast. Instead, the tanks do not use a siphon and so only cold gas is sprayed. Like big_ben said, it freezes the water in the air and creates ice on the intercooler to cool the intake temps...But anyways, back on topic----cold air is your engine's friend, especially if you have a high comp engine or a turbo or whatever.

pdhaudio83

09-09-2003, 07:20 AM

(werd)

CruzinAltitude

09-09-2003, 07:33 AM

Hey guys, pause the biochem debate for a second and lay it down. Is this mod going to give us noticeable HP gains. If so, since the kit is a bit on the pricey side, should we get some heads together and come up with a home kit "how to" mod?
Im looking at mods for my car, that will increase HP without lowering reliability. This seems like a viable option (if it works that is).

pdhaudio83

09-09-2003, 07:34 AM

the smaller the IC you have, the more this system will probably help.

CruzinAltitude

09-09-2003, 07:37 AM

I just had a dumn ass thought, My car is a stock N/A MP5. Does it even have an intercooler? Tells you how much I really F'n know!

kopp0041

09-09-2003, 09:42 AM

The system can still work with a NA car. it has three distibution options:
1. Spray an IC.
2. Use a bulb inside of the Air intake to cool the air.
3. Use a fuel bar to lower to temp of the fuel before it gets injected.

You can use one or all three of these applications if they apply to you. For us NA guys, we would want option 2 and/or 3. The unkonwn factor is how much HP gains we will see.

I've read elsewhere that the IC spayer does help, don't know specific gains, but that was on a Mini Cooper S. The guy loved it.

pdhaudio83

09-09-2003, 10:45 AM

well if you're gonna do that, you might as well go nitrous...

ddogg777

09-09-2003, 12:31 PM

You will definitely get more available power from NOS, especially if the car is tuned properly. The cryo system will probably get you 5-15hp depending on your weather. If you can tune your car (I doubt it unless you buy a piggyback fuel controller) you might up that a bit more, 10-30hp. But I have no actual experience with it, sorry. This is all conjecture from thermodynamics with a dash or realism...

ddogg777

09-09-2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by CruzinAltitude
I just had a dumn ass thought, My car is a stock N/A MP5. Does it even have an intercooler? Tells you how much I really F'n know!

The stock P5 does not have an intercooler. Better said, it has a black plastic heat soaker!! :rolleyes:

kopp0041

09-09-2003, 01:04 PM

I understand No2 would be better performance, but I'm not sure I want to go that route do to the chase of engine failure. Yes, I know, if I get it professionally installed and get the correct components ($$$$), the likely hood of that is slim, but with the Cryo2 system, I could do the install and remove the system very easily. Plus, Co2 is much cheaper.