Eibach Install Without Spring Compressor

[goldwing2000]

Mazda3 Spring Install

DISCLAIMER: This procedure WILL NOT work on all vehicles. I know it will work on a Mazda3 and a Protégé but that’s it. I ain’t responsible if you hurt yourself. If you have any questions or concerns, PM or e-mail me and I will answer to the best of my ability.

Ok, this is going to require a little more than your “basic hand tools” but not by much. If you are very familiar with tools and mechanical procedures, this should only take you a couple hours. If you’re not at all mechanically inclined, it may take you the better part of a day. You might want to think about paying somebody else to do it. ;)

One step in particular will require some brute force but a person of average strength should be able to accomplish it. I’ll let you know when we get to that step.

Also, something you can do to make sure you have tightened all the bolts: When the bolt is tight and you know it is tight, put a paint mark on it. You can use a paint pen or fingernail polish or something like that.

Items Needed:
· Your aftermarket springs
· Floor Jack
· At least one set of Jack Stands (preferably two)
· Lug Wrench
· Medium-Sized flat blade screwdriver
· ½” drive ratchet with:
. 17mm deep socket
. 17mm shallow socket
. 13mm socket
· 14mm box end wrench
· 4mm Allen (hex) wrench
· Channel Lock pliers (NOT vise grips!)
· 8-10 inch piece of 2x4 wood
· One piece of rubber about 4”square, about 1/8” thick (I used an old truck inner tube)
· Two steel hose clamps (band style, minimum 2 ½”)
· Some sort of penetrating lubricant spray
· A friend (helpful but not required)

The first step, as always, is to park the vehicle on a flat, level surface and set the parking brake. If you don’t have a flat, level surface then you should just quit now because there’s too much of a chance of you hurting yourself.

If you have four jack stands, raise the vehicle and set it on the four stands, getting it at least 12”-15” off the ground (see picture 6). If you only have two, pick which end you want to work on first. I chose the front so if I ran out of time and couldn’t finish, it would look like a funny car instead of a baby with a loaded diaper (think about it).

Front Spring Removal
· Make sure the steering wheel is perfectly straight and remove the key to lock it in place.
· Raise the hood and remove all the wheels that you have in the air.
· Remove the ABS sensor plug (if you have one) from the spindle (pic1)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/1.jpg
· Pop the ABS wire out of the bracket on the strut (pic2)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/2.jpg
· Slide the clip that holds the brake line to the strut tower off and push the brake line down and out of the bracket (pic3)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/3.jpg
· Remove the 14mm nut that holds the sway bar link the strut assembly. Mine came off easy but you may need the 4mm allen wrench to hold the center while you turn the nut. The spray lubricant helps ease disassembly (pic5)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/5.jpg
· Remove the bolt that holds your driveshaft into the spindle. I used an air gun but it’s not a huge bolt and can be removed with a large ratchet. Stick your lug wrench in between your wheel studs to keep the hub from spinning. Pay attention to how much force it required to get it off so you can apply the same amount of force when tightening (pic4)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/4.jpg
· Place the piece of wood on top of the jack and then under the ball joint on the end of the control arm and raise it up about an inch (pic6)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/6.jpg
· Put the ratchet and deep 17mm socket on the nut at the top of the strut rod
· Lift the strut boot up to expose the strut rod. Wrap the piece of rubber around the strut rod and gently grab the rod with the channel lock pliers (pic7)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/7.jpg
· Remove the top nut, applying only enough pressure to the pliers to keep the rod from spinning. If you use too much pressure on the pliers, you may break through the rubber padding and score the strut rod
· Raise the control arm up as high as you can without lifting the car off the jack stands but still low enough to where you have access to the bottom three coils of the spring.
· Place the two hose clamps around the second and third coils of the spring and snug them up just enough to take up the slack. They only have to hold a little pressure (pic8)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/8.jpg
· Completely lower the jack and pull it out from under the control arm. The spring should now freely rotate and be completely loose.
· Ok, this is the brute force step. Reach through the spring coils, grab the strut rod and push it back inside the strut. The struts are charged with an inert gas that pushes the rod back out, so you will have to be quick on the next part.
· Once you have the strut rod completely compressed, then you can lift the spring up; pull the strut/hub assembly outward toward your body and under the bottom coil of the spring. The driveshaft will probably pop out during this step but that’s why we took out the bolt. Better to have the outside pop than the inside.

VOILA! Your spring is now out and you didn’t have to loosen any parts that affect your alignment and you didn’t even have to pick up a hammer! :D

Installation
· Look up inside your wheel well and look for the little tab on the plastic spring seat above the strut boot. Pay attention to its existence for now. We’ll worry about the location later
· Push the hub assembly back towards the car and line up the driveshaft splines
· Take your new spring and slide it up over the strut boot.
· Re-compress the strut rod and slide it in under the new spring (the Eibach is about 2-3 inches shorter, so it goes in much easier).
· As the strut rod extends, make sure it goes through the hole in the isolation bumper inside the boot.
· You will also have to guide the drive shaft back into position at this point. Just kind of wiggle it to help it into place. If you have to force it, then something is wrong. Take your time and try again.
· Place the jack and piece of wood back under the control arm. Making sure that the strut rod is centered in the hole, raise the jack until the top of the spring just touches the upper spring seat.
· Rotate the spring until there is a ¼” to ½” gap between the end of the spring and the vertical spring stop. This will keep it from rattling. (pic10)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/10.jpg
· Remember that little tab? Rotate the spring seat until the tab is pointed at 180° from the wheel. (pic9)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/9.jpg
It should be basically be pointed at the opposite side of the car. It’s impossible to see where it is pointing, so you have to go by feel.
· Continue raising the jack until the threads come through the top hole, guiding the rod as necessary.
· When the threads are fully through the hole, re-install the nut, holding the rod with the pliers and rubber pad.
· Slide the boot back over the base of the strut (pic11)
http://home.comcast.net/~goldwing2000/11.jpg
· Reinstall the driveshaft bolt and tighten.
· Reinstall the sway bar link and bracket
· Reinstall the ABS wire
· Reinstall the brake line
· Reinstall the wheel
· Repeat procedure for other side.

Rear Spring Removal/installation (no pics because it's so quick and easy)
· Raise car/remove wheels as outlined above (if not already done).
· Remove sway bar links from lower control arms. The bolts are the same type as for the front links. Use the allen wrench if necessary
· Rotate the sway bar down and to the front of the car as far as it'll go
· Put jack under control arm and raise it about ½”
· Remove 17mm bolt holding control arm to spindle.
· Lower the control arm SLOWLY until the jack is all the way down. If the spring does not fall out directly, use your foot to push down the control arm and then pull out the spring.
· Transfer rubber isolator from old spring to new spring
· Put the new spring into position.
· Jack the control arm up until it is aligned with the spindle bushing, insert the 17mm bolt and snug it up but don’t tighten it yet.
· Repeat for other side
· Reinstall sway bar links and tighten firmly
· Reinstall wheels and remove vehicle from jack stands.
· Roll vehicle back and forth about 20-30 feet (drive it if you have to) and bounce it up and down a couple times.
· Crawl under the car and finish tightening the control arm bolts. I tightened them to 100Nm but if you don’t have a torque wrench, just put a good “oomph” into it.
· Recheck all your bolts (did you use the paint mark method?)
· Take it for a SLOW, short test-drive and listen for rattles.
· Recheck all your bolts

Lowering the car does alter the geometry a little bit but not really enough to worry about. My front and rear toe increased by about 1/8" and the rear camber went *slightly* more negative. I'm not going to worry about an alignment until I'm ready for new tires.

[Loose]

GW, now that's a step by step if I have ever seen one. Just one theing you forgot. Pics dude.......lots of pics.

p.s. has the handling inprove for the cash spent?

Tim

[stingfish]

good right up goldwing... but your comment about alignment is totally off.

When you lower the geometry of the vehicle, camber, caster and toe will be effected regardless... I've already gone for an alignment... toe was off and it had nothing to do with what bolt(s) were or were not removed. The top plate is grooved with tabs and when it is removed, it goes back in right were it was from the get go. Camber was dead on... toe was what was off.

the steering wheel wasn't crooked and it wasn't pulling either way... the geometry simply changed effecting both sides in the same way... The alignment was a noteworthy improvement which I would recommend be done with either approach. A toe adjustment is dirt cheap.

[goldwing2000]

Stingfish: Yep. I know the toe is off because I measured it before and after. I said as much at the bottom of the post. If I wanted to get silly, I could just adjust it myself to bring it back into line but since it's only off by 1/8" total (1/16" per side), I'm not going to worry about it until I get new tires.

Loose: Yep, the handling definitely improved. Even my girlfriend noticed the improvement and she drives a stock Taurus every day!

In normal driving, the ride is just about the same but you can really feel the progressive spring rate on big bumps (like going over railroad tracks at 50mph :D )

I included as many pics as I could. Sometimes my hands were just too full! If there's something you're curious about, I can try to answer any questions you have or even take some more pics (if it ever stops raining).

[stingfish]

Was it toed in or out? And how did you measure each side independently?

Again, your statement about alignment's not being off enough to worry about it is wrong. A 1/16" diff both sides can make a big difference... and if someone used your write-up when installing say a 2" lowering spring, the alignment would have been off that much more.

FYI - From Tire Rack...
"Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear. A toe setting that is just a little off its appropriate setting can make a huge difference in their wear. Consider that if the toe setting is just 1/16-inch off of its appropriate setting, each tire on that axle will scrub almost seven feet sideways every mile! Extend it out and you'll discover that rather than running parallel to each other, the front tires will scrub over 1/4-mile sideways during every 100 miles of driving! Incorrect toe will rob you of tire life."

Full article on alignment is here...
Tire Rack's Wheel Alginment Write-Up (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/align.jsp)

[goldwing2000]

Was it toed in or out? And how did you measure each side independently?

Out. And I didn't measure each side independently. I measured the whole and divided by two. Since the tie rods ends were not moved and the wheel was straight, any difference would be equal on both sides.

Again, your statement about alignment's not being off enough to worry about it is wrong. A 1/16" diff both sides can make a big difference... and if someone used your write-up when installing say a 2" lowering spring, the alignment would have been off that much more.

Well, that's why I said "Eibach Installation" not "lowering spring installation". And it's your opinion that the statement is wrong. I didn't say it's not enough to worry about, I said I'm not going to worry about it.
It doesn't affect my handling (dry or wet), so I'm not concerned. Whether I choose to worry about "excessive tire wear" or not is my decision. Personally, I'd be more than happy to have these crap RSAs wear out faster.

FYI - From Tire Rack...
"Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear. A toe setting that is just a little off its appropriate setting can make a huge difference in their wear. Consider that if the toe setting is just 1/16-inch off of its appropriate setting, each tire on that axle will scrub almost seven feet sideways every mile! Extend it out and you'll discover that rather than running parallel to each other, the front tires will scrub over 1/4-mile sideways during every 100 miles of driving! Incorrect toe will rob you of tire life."

I'm glad you can look up things on the internet. Do you actually have any mechanical experience or are you just one of those "book mechanics"? Like I already said, tire wear is the least of my worries.

I'm not telling anybody that they can't or shouldn't get an alignment, just that it's not necessary if you don't want to and I'm not going to.

If my choice upsets you, tough crap. It's my car.

[stingfish]

Goldwing2000 - It is very unlikely that toe was out equally on both sides since the tie rods are of different lengths.

FOR EVERYONE ELSE - If you have no problem with the RSA's, can't afford to hope they wear out faster, autocross or have already spent $200-300 per tire for some 18's or 19's... do yourself a favor and do the opposite of what goldwing2000 did and spend the $25 on an alignment... all you'll need is a front toe adjustment.

Otherwise, his write-up was EXCELLENT.

[El Ropo]

In normal driving, the ride is just about the same but you can really feel the progressive spring rate on big bumps (like going over railroad tracks at 50mph )

I'm a bit confused by that statement. I thought the Eibach springs were definitely NOT progressive.

[goldwing2000]

Goldwing2000 - It is very unlikely that toe was out equally on both sides since the tie rods are of different lengths.

FOR EVERYONE ELSE - If you have no problem with the RSA's, can't afford to hope they wear out faster, autocross or have already spent $200-300 per tire for some 18's or 19's... do yourself a favor and do the opposite of what goldwing2000 did and spend the $25 on an alignment... all you'll need is a front toe adjustment.


How do you figure the tie rods are different lengths? It's a rack-and-pinion system. Both sides are identical.

http://www.media.mazda.com/product_info/axela/images/gallery/dyna/wthumb3.jpg

Gee... they look pretty similar to me. Here's a clue: if the total toe has changed but the steering wheel is still centered as you drive down the road, then both sides have changed equally.

And riddle me this batman... if all you need is a front toe adjustment, then why is the rear toe not affected? You're doing the same thing to the suspension, right?
Well, I'll just tell you right off that you're wrong (since you enjoy telling me that I'm wrong so much).
Rear toe is also affected. I know. I measured it. It's off by exactly the same amount as the front.
If you're going to do the alignment, do the whole thing and don't half-ass it.
Whoever told you that a "toe-and-go" on the front is all you need was either too lazy to do a four-wheel alignment or didn't know what they were talking about. Or maybe you just didn't want to pay the extra $15. (shrug)

At any rate, if you already have your aftermarket tires or if you notice a degradation in handling, then definitely get the alignment checked. Otherwise, it's not a huge deal.

Just a suggestion here... no offense but maybe you should stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about.

[goldwing2000]

I'm a bit confused by that statement. I thought the Eibach springs were definitely NOT progressive.

I've heard that they are and I've heard that they aren't. I know that they sure feel like a progressive. According to Eibach's web site:

Eibach engineers are familiar with the balance of optimizing handling while maintaining ride quality. With our extensive research and pioneering of progressive rate performance suspension springs Eibach springs will provide the exceptional handling and precise vehicle responsiveness and stability with minimal effect to the ride quality.

and

What is the spring rate of the Pro-Kit?
Only simple linear springs have a spring rate. A sophisticated progressive Eibach Pro-Kit spring has a load/deflection characteristic. The special design parameters are only accessable through Eibach Desk-Tech Database to Eibach's exclusive partners

The link is here is you want to read up:
http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/0037.2.6512897732400006499?

Hope that answers your question.

[Airman Jack]

could you post some pics of your car with a before and after shot?

[Loose]

Stingfish: Yep. I know the toe is off because I measured it before and after. I said as much at the bottom of the post. If I wanted to get silly, I could just adjust it myself to bring it back into line but since it's only off by 1/8" total (1/16" per side), I'm not going to worry about it until I get new tires.

Loose: Yep, the handling definitely improved. Even my girlfriend noticed the improvement and she drives a stock Taurus every day!

In normal driving, the ride is just about the same but you can really feel the progressive spring rate on big bumps (like going over railroad tracks at 50mph :D )

I included as many pics as I could. Sometimes my hands were just too full! If there's something you're curious about, I can try to answer any questions you have or even take some more pics (if it ever stops raining).

Just wanted one or two of the car lowered to see how a low 5DR looks...
Thanx

Tim (dunno)

[AzMz3]

Good write up....I'd still get an alignment.
And maybe change the subject title, sounds like you are saying that an alignment is not needed.

--Herb--

[goldwing2000]

Just wanted one or two of the car lowered to see how a low 5DR looks...
Thanx

Tim (dunno)

Oh yeah... I haven't gotten to the "after" pics yet. The weather has been crap and the car is dirty as all hell. I'll wash it and get some pics up for ya.

[goldwing2000]

Good write up....I'd still get an alignment.
And maybe change the subject title, sounds like you are saying that an alignment is not needed.

--Herb--

Thanks Herb.

I'm not going to get an alignment and I'll tell you why. I actually think it drives better now then it did before I put the springs on. It used to be really twitchy and tend to "hunt" in the road grooves. Now it's almost perfectly planted, even in monsoon rain. (shrug)

I ain't gonna mess with it. I might have my buddy throw it on the machine to have a look but I'm not going to adjust anything.

[stingfish]

Thanks Herb.

I'm not going to get an alignment and I'll tell you why. I actually think it drives better now then it did before I put the springs on. It used to be really twitchy and tend to "hunt" in the road grooves. Now it's almost perfectly planted, even in monsoon rain. (shrug)

I ain't gonna mess with it. I might have my buddy throw it on the machine to have a look but I'm not going to adjust anything.

Toe out is typically used in rear wheel drive cars... toe in is typically used in front drive cars... at least when we're talking performance driving on a track... your front drive car being 1/16" toe out each side will be 1/8" or more each side when it's driving down the road... not good. You're correct, toe out will make a car more stable, but this is a front drive car so it pushes through the turns if anything... the twitchines is more likely the shocks than your toe adjustment and you've just patched it up with a bad alignment.

If you're just cruising around in your car... choosing not to get an alignment isn't that big of a deal, but if you're goal is to maximize the potential of your suspension (which most of us probably are), choosing not to do so is a big no-no, especially on a car with as much potential as ours.

[Gbourdon]

Get an alignment. I waited 2 weeks to get mine done and totally wore my tires quite excessively. Car drove straight as hell and handled fine but my toe was not even close. It was off by different amounts left and right but this may have been the case prior to the spring install.

Alignment is much cheaper than tires.

[stingfish]

How do you figure the tie rods are different lengths? It's a rack-and-pinion system. Both sides are identical.

http://www.media.mazda.com/product_info/axela/images/gallery/dyna/wthumb3.jpg

Gee... they look pretty similar to me. Here's a clue: if the total toe has changed but the steering wheel is still centered as you drive down the road, then both sides have changed equally.

And riddle me this batman... if all you need is a front toe adjustment, then why is the rear toe not affected? You're doing the same thing to the suspension, right?
Well, I'll just tell you right off that you're wrong (since you enjoy telling me that I'm wrong so much).
Rear toe is also affected. I know. I measured it. It's off by exactly the same amount as the front.
If you're going to do the alignment, do the whole thing and don't half-ass it.
Whoever told you that a "toe-and-go" on the front is all you need was either too lazy to do a four-wheel alignment or didn't know what they were talking about. Or maybe you just didn't want to pay the extra $15. (shrug)

At any rate, if you already have your aftermarket tires or if you notice a degradation in handling, then definitely get the alignment checked. Otherwise, it's not a huge deal.

Just a suggestion here... no offense but maybe you should stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about.

One side IS longer (upyours) ...
http://homepage.mac.com/stingfish/images/wthumb3_longer.jpg

[goldwing2000]

the twitchines is more likely the shocks than your toe adjustment and you've just patched it up with a bad alignment.

Bad shocks (they're actually struts) on a brand new car???

Ummm... ok. (scratch) (boom03)

[goldwing2000]

One side IS longer (upyours) ...
http://homepage.mac.com/stingfish/images/wthumb3_longer.jpg

Nice... (boom07)

[goldwing2000]

Alignment is much cheaper than tires.

True, true...

[stingfish]

Bad shocks (they're actually struts) on a brand new car???

Ummm... ok. (scratch) (boom03)

I don't mean they're blown... just not up to your expectations.... a GEO Metro feels twitchy but a set of Bilsteins and some Eibachs would fix that too.

[stingfish]

Nice... (boom07)
Seriously though they are different lengths... maybe not enough to be visible in the pic you sent but DEFINITELY enough to throw toe off one side by 1/16" and the other by 1/8". 1/8" is a huge difference.

[stingfish]

Get an alignment. I waited 2 weeks to get mine done and totally wore my tires quite excessively. Car drove straight as hell and handled fine but my toe was not even close. It was off by different amounts left and right but this may have been the case prior to the spring install.

Alignment is much cheaper than tires.

Thank you GBourdon!

Goldwing2000... I rest my case... I'll leave you alone now... no hard feelings here. (cheers)

[goldwing2000]

Seriously though they are different lengths... maybe not enough to be visible in the pic you sent but DEFINITELY enough to throw toe off one side by 1/16" and the other by 1/8". 1/8" is a huge difference.

One of these days I'm going to measure them and prove you wrong. But for now, it just doesn't matter. (shrug)

[goldwing2000]

Thank you GBourdon!

Goldwing2000... I rest my case... I'll leave you alone now... no hard feelings here. (cheers)

I'll just say this: all cars are not created equal. They are all slightly different. I'll leave it at that.

[goldwing2000]

Toe out is typically used in rear wheel drive cars... toe in is typically used in front drive cars... at least when we're talking performance driving on a track... your front drive car being 1/16" toe out each side will be 1/8" or more each side when it's driving down the road... not good. You're correct, toe out will make a car more stable, but this is a front drive car so it pushes through the turns if anything...

I just re-read your post... you got it completely backwards. Read the Tire Rack write-up again.

A rear-wheel drive vehicle "pushes" the front axle's tires as they roll along the road. Tire rolling resistance causes a little drag resulting in rearward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Because of this, most rear-wheel drive vehicles use some positive toe-in to compensate for the movement, enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.

Conversely, a front-wheel drive vehicle "pulls" the vehicle through the front axle, resulting in forward movement of the suspension arms against their bushings. Therefore most front-wheel drive vehicles use some negative toe-out to compensate for the movement, again enabling the tires to run parallel to each other at speed.


If you're going to try to school somebody, make sure you are presenting the proper information.

[stingfish]

I just re-read your post... you got it completely backwards. Read the Tire Rack write-up again.



If you're going to try to school somebody, make sure you are presenting the proper information.

God dude... (braindead... well now I know you don't know what you're talking about... negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out. Give it up already. And if you don't believe me, go take an ASE course in alignments.

[goldwing2000]

God dude... (braindead... well now I know you don't know what you're talking about... negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out. Give it up already. And if you don't believe me, go take an ASE course in alignments.

Dude... what the hell are you talking about?? You just said "toe out is toe in" and "toe in is toe out"!! That make no sense whatsoever! It's like saying right is left and left is right.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/tiretech/diag_toe.gif

An axle is said to have positive toe-in when imaginary lines running through the centerlines of the tires intersect in front of the vehicle and have negative toe-out when they diverge.
And I have my ASE certification in front ends and suspension, thankyouverymuch.

Like I said before, stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about!

[stingfish]

Dude... what the hell are you talking about?? You just said "toe out is toe in" and "toe in is toe out"!! That make no sense whatsoever! It's like saying right is left and left is right.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/tiretech/diag_toe.gif

An axle is said to have positive toe-in when imaginary lines running through the centerlines of the tires intersect in front of the vehicle and have negative toe-out when they diverge.
And I have my ASE certification in front ends and suspension, thankyouverymuch.

Like I said before, stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about!

I will repeat myself... in the world of performance suspension tuning...

toe in = toe in

toe out = toe out

NEGATIVE toe in = toe out

POSITIVE toe out = toe in

I am done with this tread... turning notification off.

[Loose]

I will repeat myself... in the world of performance suspension tuning...

toe in = toe in

toe out = toe out

NEGATIVE toe in = toe out

POSITIVE toe out = toe in

I am done with this tread... turning notification off.
Look, I'm a motor guy. The way I have always understood it was as GW has layed it out. I'm alittle confused as to NEGATIVE and POSITIVE toe....I always thought it was just IN or OUT.?. (bang)

[goldwing2000]

"Positive toe" is toe in.

"Negative toe" is toe out.

"Negative toe in" and "Positive toe out" do not exist except as figments of stingfish's imagination.

I wonder what color the sky is in his "world of performance suspension tuning". You'll also notice that he completely contradicted his own post.

negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out.

NEGATIVE toe in = toe out

POSITIVE toe out = toe in

This is auto mechanics, not english grammar. Double-negatives don't apply!

p.s. I've been ASE certified in steering and suspension since 1995 (re-certified in 2000). The rules haven't changed in that time.

[Loose]

"Positive toe" is toe in.

"Negative toe" is toe out.


OIC, that makes perfect sense. What was up w/ the (enguard). He was very defensive. Maybe not held enough as a child? J/K

[goldwing2000]

OIC, that makes perfect sense. What was up w/ the (enguard). He was very defensive. Maybe not held enough as a child? J/K

Just afraid to admit that he was wrong, I suspect. (shrug) I think he reads a lot of web sites and thinks he knows a lot about cars but has no real-world experience.

It's sad, really. I wonder how many people he has led astray with unintentional misinformation. *sigh*

[stingfish]

Ok Goldwing... honestly... being a Moderator and having a signature with the words ASE Certified in it doesn't prove to anyone that you are the god of automotive intelligence. I do not doubt your ability to turn a wrench, the only thing I doubt is your ability to accept someone might now a little more than you do. Both of us are right, but in this case I just happen to bring a little more knowledge to the table. I sketched out what I think you are confused about... perhaps it'll sink in a little better. I am in no way saying toe in is simply toe out. When you look at BOTH WHEELS TOGETHER, that's when you define positive or negative toe. Example... if BOTH wheels are toed out, this is referred to as Negative Toe In or Negative Toe - the OPPOSITE of Toe In.

As you grow as a mechanic (we all do), this will likely be something you will one day say "man - he was right about that". I'm not going to claim I am a know it all or have less or more experience than you... what I can tell you is that I have been tuning suspensions for race car teams for almost 20 years now and this is one subject I know well. Perhaps if I would have followed in your footsteps and put my qualifications in my signature, you'd have a little more respect for someone that might know a little more than you do.

Notifications turned back on... be the moderator you should be and lock this hijacked thread already instead of trying to get the last word in. On the other hand, anyone that puts big air horns on a 4 cylinder Mazda 3 just to "scare the bejesus out of" soccer moms must be desperate to be the king of something.

Here's that sketch...

http://homepage.mac.com/stingfish/images/alignment_sketch.jpg

[goldwing2000]

Ok, Stingfish, I'll play your little game.

Sketch 1: Yep
Sketch 2: Yep
Sketch 3: Yep
Sketch 4: Nope
Sketch 5: Maybe

I am not confused about anything. I fully understand the idea that you are attempting to convey but the point I'm trying to make is that the terms you are using are improper and misleading.

Sketch four would not be called “Negative toe-in.” It would be referred to as simply “negative toe”, “toe-out” or “negative toe-out” if you wanted to get wordy.
Positive and negative toe do not change names whether you are talking about one wheel or two.
One wheel toed in is positive toe.
Both wheels toed in is positive toe.
One wheel toed out is negative toe.
Both wheels toed out is negative toe.

“Positive Toe” and “Positive Toe-out” are NOT interchangeable terms
“Negative Toe” and “Negative Toe-in” are NOT interchangeable terms.

“Positive Toe-out” and “Negative Toe-in” are self-contradictory terms and do not exist in proper diagnosis and discussion of steering systems. Maybe race cars use different terms for some reason (I don’t know why they would) but since we’re talking about street cars and not race cars, that’s a moot point.
I have no doubt that all your "race buddies" use the terms but that does not make it correct. I've known a lot of race mechanics who could turn a wrench like nobody's business but they couldn't explain what they were doing to someone else if their life depended on it.
Unfortunately, since this is a discussion forum, being able to properly convey a message is paramount and presenting improper information (whether intentional or not) can confuse a great number of people.

I say maybe on sketch 5 because it could also be a case of left wheel toed out and right wheel toed in with a perfectly straight steering wheel. Steering wheel position is independent of total toe.

I never claimed that “... being a Moderator and having a signature with the words ASE Certified...” proves anything. I let the fact that I do not present erroneous information take care of anything that needs to be proven. If I don't know something or I am not 100% positive about it, then I have no trouble saying so.

Oh, and I like how you accuse me of "trying to get the last word in" when you return to a thread you have admittedly abandoned just to get the last word in yourself. Nice misdirection.

Also, how can you consider this thread hijacked? Hijacking a thread, by definition, would be changing the subject on somebody else's thread. I started the thread and it the entire discussion has been about suspension and wheel alignment.

And yes, I AM trying to be "king of something" by putting air horns on my car.
King of Not Getting Run Off The Road By Morons In SUVs.
If you hadn't taken my words out of context, you would have realized this. The exact phrase was, "... scare the bejesus out of some oblivious soccer mom who dares trespass in my lane..."
I am very cautious about using my horns and only do so when absolutely necessary.

If you wish to continue this conversation, be my guest. Although, you should really come up with better supporting documentation then, "because I said so."

[stingfish]

i just did a search for negative toe in... it seems as though the only way I will be able to prove my point is for it to come from the mouth of some other expert... i have no clue who these guys are but it's the first thing that came up... it's there in black and white... 2nd section... Wheel Alignment 19.95? 3rd Sentence.

Summary: When both front tires of a vehicle are pointed away from "each other they are referred to as having a negative toe-in angle."

http://www.samscars.com/sam-2-1.htm

Oh, and these guys are NOT my "race buddies".

[Loose]

God dude... (braindead... well now I know you don't know what you're talking about... negative toe out is toe in - same freakin thing... and positive toe in is toe out. Give it up already. And if you don't believe me, go take an ASE course in alignments.
Above + earlier diagram = :confused:

The first thing I learned from the first college I went to is "don't trust anything on the internet" class: Computers 101

Refer to positive toe in is toe out. and diagram #3 =??????????

Sorry stingfish, I think you maybe tied with your own words here.

[goldwing2000]

i have no clue who these guys are but it's the first thing that came up... it's there in black and white... 2nd section... Wheel Alignment 19.95? 3rd Sentence.

Yeah, I have no idea who those guys are either. Judging by their web site, it just looks like some used car dealer and repair shop in Massachusetts.

I congratulate you on finding someone to coroborate your story but I would hardly consider "Sam Giammalvo's Auto Sales & Service Inc." as expert testimony. I never said people don't use the terms, just that they are not the proper terms.

Here, I can look things up on the internet, too:
http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm (the section on Toe)
Toe-in means that the fronts of the tires are closer to each other than the rears. Toe-out is just the opposite.

http://www.nangar.com/midas/alignment.htm (under Alignment 101)
Toe - The distance between the front of the wheels compared with the back of the wheels
Toe-In - Wheels are closer together at the front than at the rear
Toe-Out - Wheels are further apart at the front than at the rear

http://www.aftermarketbusiness.com/aftermarketbusiness/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=3333
If the front of the tires points toward the centerline of the vehicle, with both tires aiming inboard, this is called "toe-in," because the tires on that axle are aiming inboard. If the front of the tires aim in an outboard direction, away from the centerline of the vehicle, this is referred to as "toe-out."

http://www.specprod.com/TECH_DIR/SPCFundamentals.pdf
Toe-in is the measurement in fractions of an inch, millimeters or
decimal of degrees that the tires are closer together in the front than they are in the back. Toe-out is the same measurement, except the tires are further apart in the front than in the rear.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030813.htm
Toe-In is when the front of the wheels are closer together than the rear of the wheels on the same axle. Toe-Out is when the front of the wheels are farther apart than the rear of the wheels on the same axle.

http://beluap.tripod.com/crash5.html
Toe in is recorded as positive toe angle and toe out is negative.

ooo... here's a good one:
http://www.aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#Front%20toe
Toe-in, or positive toe, is defined as the front of the tires being closer together than the rear of the tires. Toe-out, or negative toe, is when the rear of the tires are closer together than the front of the tires.

And on and on and on...

[stingfish]

How are you any different from a little shop in MA? I appreciate the lengths you went to in finding some alignment info for me... but nothing I've said contradicts anything in those articles. What we are arguing about here now is your inability to believe... Toe Out = Negative Toe In.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/80_96/7166.html

2nd reply...
toe-out, aka negative toe-in

http://www.humvee.net/hid/susp/string.html

Section - Measuring the Toe-in, Front:
If the string is not in contact with the sidewall at the rear of the front tire, then that tire has negative toe-in.

You can also think of negative toe-in as the rear of the tires are "toed in".

http://eaglewoman.racesimcentral.com/gpl/grehelp/glossary.htm

Negative toe-in, also called "toe out", means that the front of the wheel points outward

Notice the term in the glossary above... TOE-IN (Not just Toe)... so we have Positive Toe-In and Negative Toe-In... Positive Toe-In = Toe In... Negative Toe-In = Toe Out. Confusing yes and that's why it's not often referenced as such, but it is a legitimate alignment definition.


Honestly dude... when you go to get recertified in 2005, ask your ASE instructor if Toe Out = Negative Toe In... he will set you straight. Otherwise, you are a fool to waste any more time on me or this thread.

[goldwing2000]

All I'll say it that every reference you come up with is either a message board or someone's personal web site. I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who agree with your opinion. However, actually finding that term in accepted practices will be difficult for you.

Also, you never did come up with any reference for your "positive toe-out" term. I took the liberty of searching for it myself and found the same types of references (in addition to some links to foot doctors).

If you had any ASE certifications, you'd know that the test administrators are not "ASE instructors" and generally have no knowledge whatsoever of the test material.

Since we're passing out axioms: You're a fool if you continue trying to prove an untruth.

[stingfish]

I see... so now we are arguing about who's links are better... familycar.com???? aftermarketbusiness.com????, tripod.com???? Did you get to these sites from links provided by the ASE... I don't think so. Neither of us are going to prove our points until one of us brings some published material to the table.

I'm not sure though, based on your last response, if you agree or disagree with the definition... Toe Out = Negative Toe In... can you set me straight on this... do you disagree with the term or do you agree but feel it's not a definition mechanics use?

[Loose]

I need a hug (strike)

[Mzda3sturbo]

I need a hug

I think what you mean they need a hug :D

[Loose]

I think what you mean they need a hug :D
Hugs for everybody (group)

[goldwing2000]

I'm not sure though, based on your last response, if you agree or disagree with the definition... Toe Out = Negative Toe In... can you set me straight on this... do you disagree with the term or do you agree but feel it's not a definition mechanics use?

That's what I've been saying all along. It's not the theory that I disagree with, it's the use of an improper term. "Toe out=Negative Toe In" is exactly the same as saying "Left=Negative Right". It is technically correct but just not the proper way of describing something and is bound to cause confusion.

It all boils down to the K.I.S.S. principle.

[AzMz3]

It all boils down to the K.I.S.S. principle.

Then why are you making this so complicated...LOL
Just messing with ya.

I got my alignment done today, rear was fine but the front had toe issues. Wasn't that bad though. I was more worried about the rear.

--Herb--

[Airman Jack]

wouldn't the front alignment be more important? since those are the power and driving wheels?

[goldwing2000]

I got my alignment done today, rear was fine but the front had toe issues. Wasn't that bad though. I was more worried about the rear.

--Herb--

I had mine checked and the toe was mostly ok but the rear camber is ridiculous. -2.5° ! I hope somebody comes out with camber bolts (or something) before it's time for new tires.

[goldwing2000]

Ok, I think this has finally been debated to a decent conclusion. I'm going to go ahead and close the thread. If anybody has anything important to add, PM me and I'll re-open it.

(locked)